**Sally Kornbluth:** 维持精英制(meritocracy)和卓越的方式,就是确保每一个引进的人——对我们来说,这意味着所有教授、所有员工、所有学生——我们必须始终聚焦卓越。我在 Duke 的一位同事办公室里挂着一块牌子,上面写着:"如果你舔了一口平庸的棒棒糖,你就永远烂下去了。"
**Sally Kornbluth:** The way you maintain meritocracy and excellence is to make sure that each person you bring in, and for us this means all of our faculty, all of our staff, all of our students, we have to consistently focus on excellence. Um, there was a colleague of mine at Duke who had a sign in his office that said, "If you have a take a lick of the uh lollipop of mediocrity, you will suck forever."
**Brian Halligan:** 这句话不错。
**Brian Halligan:** Uh, that's pretty good.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我一直很喜欢这句话。大家好,今天播客请到了 Sally Kornbluth。她是 MIT 校长,真正的宝藏人物。她的经历非常有意思。上任校长不到一年,她就被传唤到国会,和 Harvard 校长、UPenn 校长一起就各种议题作证。大家可能都记得 Elise Stefanik 问了非常尖锐的问题,三位校长的回答都不太理想。我们会深入聊这段经历和她的应对——我认为她的应对非常出色。Harvard 校长和 UPenn 校长都没能挺过那场危机,而她不仅存活下来,还在其中茁壮成长。最近她还遇到了联邦政府发来的"高等教育卓越契约"(Compact for Excellence in Higher Education),发给了大约 11、12 所学校,MIT 的应对方式非常亮眼,展现了出色的领导力。她擅长应对危机,我们对此聊了很多。Sally 和我还大量讨论了我所说的"维持精英制"——她管理着一个庞大的组织,150 多年来 MIT 就是卓越和精英制的代名词。事物的自然状态是回归平均,大多数公司都会如此。我们谈到他们如何保持高标准、如何长期维持。我认为这对正在扩张的 CEO 非常有借鉴意义。她有一句经典引语——"如果你舔了一口平庸的棒棒糖,你就永远烂下去了。"我觉得她说到了点子上。之后她还分享了一些管理大型组织的基本功,有些内容我自己也需要被提醒,希望对你们也有用。最后我们还聊了如何组建董事会、如何管理董事会、如何让董事会发挥最大价值。希望你们喜欢这期。她是真正的宝藏人物。我侄子 Jack 正在申请商学院,他是个很棒的年轻人,我真的很想让他去 Sloan。我在 Sloan 读过书,也在 Sloan 教书。我费了很大力气想影响录取流程——前门、后门、地下室、阁楼,每一扇门我去敲,他们都说:"我们不在乎你是谁,你不可能影响录取流程。"百分之百如此。
**Sally Kornbluth:** And I I always liked that. Hey everybody, we have Sally Cornbluth on the pod today. She's president of MIT and a real gem. She's had a really interesting journey. Within a year of being hired as president of MIT, uh she was summoned to Congress and spoke alongside the president of Harvard and UPEN about all manner of things. And you probably all remember Elise Stefanic really asking her some tough questions and all three presidents not really nailing that. So we get into that and her response to it and I think her response was excellent. uh neither the Harvard uh president nor the uh UPEN president made it through uh that crisis. She not only survived but she thrived in it. She also had is having more recent run-ins with the compact for excellence in higher education that the federal government gave her which was pretty interesting and her reaction to that I thought was really interesting and showed terrific leadership. It was only 11 or 12 institutions that got it and I thought MIT shined on that. She is good in a crisis and talks a bunch about that. Sally and I talked a lot about what I refer to as sustaining meritocracy. She's got a giant organization and over 150 years, you know, they are synonymous with excellence and synonymous with meritocracy. And the natural state of things is you kind of regress to the mean and most companies do that. So we talk about how they keep the standards high and how they sustain it over long periods of time. I think it's super applicical to scaling CEOs. She's got a great quote in there. Um, the suck in my head. If you take a lick of the lollipop of mediocrity, you suck forever. I think she hits the nail on the head in that one. And then she gets into just some blocking and tackling of how to be a CEO of a large organization. Some things that I needed a reminder on and hopefully they're useful to you. And lastly, we talked a bunch about how to manage how to hire a board and how to manage a board and how to get the most out of a board. I hope you like it. She's a gym. My nephew Jack is applying to business schools. He's a wonderful kid and I really want him to go to Sloan. I went to Sloan. I teach at Sloan. And I've worked hard to influence the process. I went through the front door. I went through the back door. I went through the basement in the attic. Every door I go to, they're like, "We don't care who you are. You're not going to influence the process." 100%.
**Brian Halligan:** 我喜欢这点。我喜欢我们是 COVID 后第一个恢复 SAT 和 ACT 要求的学校。我喜欢我们是"需求盲"(needs blind)录取。你能谈谈这个吗?对公司来说做到精英制很容易,难的是如何在规模化时维持。你们是怎么做的?首先我得说,我来这里后也有同样的经历。有人说:"能不能帮我跟招生的人说一声,让他们多看看我孩子的材料?"我想,好吧,我可以让他们多看一眼。不行,
**Brian Halligan:** I love that. I love that we were the first place to bring back SAT and and ACTs after COVID. I love that we're needs blind. Can you talk about that and it's like it's easy for companies to be meritocracies like we are. It's hard to scale it like how do we how do you scale that? Well, you know, first of all, I should say I had the same experience when I got here because I was someone said, "Oh, can you, you know, speak to someone about getting my kid into MIT and I was like, well, you know, I could just tell them to take a closer look." No, no,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 绝对不行。我刚到这里时,他们就跟我说:"我们在 MIT 不做这种事,就是不做。"所以,这完全是凭实力说话。
**Sally Kornbluth:** I cannot. I was new here. They were like, "We do not do that at MIT. We just don't." So, it is it is pure merit.
**Brian Halligan:** 很有意思。我觉得如果要将精英制扩展开来,核心问题是:如何扩展卓越?
**Brian Halligan:** Um, you know, it's interesting. And I think the way to scale meritocracy, if you want to extrapolate, is how do you scale excellence?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 事情是这样的——当你创办一家公司,或者组建一个新团队、开始一份新工作时,你可能就是最优秀的那个人,对吧?这时候有一种诱惑,就是随便招人。老实说,引进
**Sally Kornbluth:** And the thing is that when you start a company or when you start a new team, a new job, um you're probably the best person out there at it, right? And there's a temptation to just hire people. And honestly, bringing in
**Brian Halligan:** 随便什么人,还不如没有人。维持精英制和卓越的方式,就是确保每一个引进的人——对我们来说,这意味着所有教授、所有员工、所有学生——我们必须始终聚焦卓越。我在 Duke 的一位同事办公室里挂着一块牌子,上面写着:"如果你舔了一口平庸的棒棒糖,你就永远烂下去了。"
**Brian Halligan:** just people, it's better to have nobody. The way you maintain meritocracy and excellence is to make sure that each person you bring in, and for us this means all of our faculty, all of our staff, all of our students, we have to consistently focus on excellence. Um, there was a colleague of mine at Duke who had a sign in his office that said, "If you have a take a lick of the uh lollipop of mediocrity, you will suck forever."
**Sally Kornbluth:** 这句话不错。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Uh, that's pretty good.
**Brian Halligan:** 我一直很喜欢这句话。我们非常注意确保每一次招聘都是优秀的,这样当人们在 MIT 内部协作时,他们知道不仅仅是自己会做好工作,隔壁的人也会做好工作,走廊那头的人也是如此。所以我认为很重要的一点就是拥有一种心态:一致性非常重要。回到你刚才说的一扇门接一扇门,整个机构必须传递一致的信息,因为如果其中一扇门是开着的,
**Brian Halligan:** And I I always liked that. And you know, so we really pay attention that each hire is excellent so that when people collaborate across MIT, they know it's not just them that are that are going to do do good work. They know that the people next door are also going to do good work or the people down the hall. So I think that is a very big part of it is just having a mindset that consistency is really important. And to your point about going from one door to another door to another door, it has to be a consistent message across the whole institution because if one of those doors had been open,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 可以肯定人们会蜂拥而入。
**Sally Kornbluth:** then you could bet people would have flooded through that door.
**Brian Halligan:** 如果有一扇门开着,就会有人钻进去。
**Brian Halligan:** Would have gotten through if there was a door open.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 没错,没错。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Exactly. Exactly.
**Brian Halligan:** 他确实被录取了。我觉得挺为他难过的,因为所有人都以为是我帮他进去的,但其实跟我一点关系都没有。
**Brian Halligan:** He did get in. Obviously, I feel bad for him because everyone assumes I got him in. I had nothing to do with it.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 另外一点是,精英(merit)可以从很多不同维度来定义。人们可能觉得你得考高分、SAT 成绩好才能进 MIT,但实际上有很多维度。我会这样定义:我们想要引进的是能从我们这个出色环境中受益、同时也能为这个环境做出贡献的人。这可以从很多维度来衡量,不全是可量化的,很多是从
**Sally Kornbluth:** Well, you know, the other thing is that um merit can be defined in a number of different ways. is I mean I think people think that sure you got to get high grades to get into MIT you got to get have great test scores to get into MIT but there's so many dimensions and I would define it in this way we want to bring in people who can benefit from the fantastic environment we have and who will contribute to that fantastic environment and there can be a lot of dimensions on which this is true they're not all completely quantifiable a lot of them comes come through in the
**Brian Halligan:** 这是文化层面的还是写成制度的?
**Brian Halligan:** tangible is cultural or is it written down?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 并没有完全写下来,因为有点像"你看到就知道"——当然这可能有主观性的问题。我的意思不是说我们没有明确的标准,而是说有一定的灵活性,能够包容各种形式的你我都会称为优秀、了不起的人。
**Sally Kornbluth:** It's not exactly written down because it's a little bit like the if you know it you see it and that that obviously could be uh subject to a lot of objectivity. So I don't mean that it's not written down in the sense that we don't have certain criteria in mind. I just mean there's some flexibility to it to take into account a wide variety of what you or I might call excellent fantastic people.
**Brian Halligan:** 明白了。我辅导很多 CEO,他们都很出色。大约在 150 人的时候会出现一个转折点——创始人不再面试每一个人了,
**Brian Halligan:** Got it. Okay. I I coach all these CEOs. They're terrific. And like something happens around 150 employees where the the founder no longer interviews everyone,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 对吧?
**Sally Kornbluth:** right?
**Brian Halligan:** 标准就会下降一点,对吧?
然后等到 500 人的时候他们醒过来,心想:"我的公司到底怎么了?"你就是那个 CEO——标准降了,然后想在 500 人的时候再提起来。你会给这样的 CEO 什么建议?
**Brian Halligan:** And the bar drops a little bit, right?
And they wake up at 500 employees and you're like, "What the hell happened to my company?" You're that CEO. You drop the bar and then you're trying to pick it up at 500. What would you do?
What advice would you give that CEO?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我会这样说。首先,回到刚才那个点——不管是在你脑子里还是在现实中,你可能就是最优秀的那个人,你维持了那个标准。阻止下滑比从下滑中恢复要容易得多。所以创业初期最重要的事情是建立一个强大的团队,你可以委托信任他们。换句话说,开始的时候可能需要一些"信任但验证"——你想看看一个人是不是真的优秀。但之后,微观管理是非常有问题的,批评很容易,但你真的得让人有施展空间。回到你的问题——从 150 人到 500 人的过程中,你必须沿途建立一个强有力的副手层级结构。如果你无法把这个信息往下传递,
**Sally Kornbluth:** Well, I would say this. First of all, again coming to the fact that in your head or in reality, you may be the best person. You've held up that standard. It is a lot easier to stop that slide than to recover from it as you say. So the most important thing when someone's starting is to build a strong team to whom they can delegate and who they can trust. In other words, there's a little bit sometimes of trust but verify at the beginning. you want to see if someone's really good, but after that micromanagement is really problematic and uh it's easy to criticize, but you really have to let people run a little bit. And I think to your point, you have to build a strong structure of lieutenants along the way when you're getting to 150 to 500, etc. And if you can't convey that message down through the troops,
**Brian Halligan:** 对,
**Brian Halligan:** yeah,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 你就永远无法掌控局面。即使在 MIT 这样的地方,我们也会遇到沟通困难的问题。我最好的例子来自我之前的学校。大家一直在催我们什么时候重新开放——这是 COVID 之后。我们发了一封邮件给所有人通知重新开放的时间,打开率只有 30%。
**Sally Kornbluth:** you're never going to be able to get control of it. I have to say even at a place like MIT we do have trouble though sometimes communicating those messages even if we have a hierarchy. My best example of this was actually from my previous institution. Okay. Everyone was bugging us when are we going to reopen? This was after co when are we going to reopen? When are we going to reopen and you know we sent out an email to everybody about when we were going to reopen. It had a 30% opening rate. Okay.
**Brian Halligan:** 所以其实没人那么在意。
**Brian Halligan:** So no one really cared THAT MUCH.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 他们在意,但还是不愿意读领导层的邮件。我真的觉得那种高接触的、能够层层传递你的信息的人际网络变得非常重要。
**Sally Kornbluth:** THEY CARED BUT THEY STILL DIDN'T WANT TO read leadership emails. I really think that hight touch series of people who can fan out and carry your message personally becomes really important.
**Brian Halligan:** Sally,我有信任问题,我发现我合作的几乎所有 CEO 都有信任问题。他们真正深度信任、能委托招聘和跨部门协作的人非常少。你有信任问题吗?
**Brian Halligan:** Sally, I have trust issues and I found almost all the CEOs I work with have trust issues and it's a very very small amount of employees. They deeply trust to hire and do things crossfunctionally. Do you have trust issues?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我会说没有。我会在前期就把这个问题解决掉。有人批评过我刚来的时候为什么不马上换人,我觉得我需要时间来评估每个人的能力,
**Sally Kornbluth:** Um I would say no. Okay. in the sense that I try to I try to sort of nip that in the butt up front, which is again, you know, people criticized me a little bit at first when I came in. Well, why aren't you turning over these positions? Why aren't I think I needed time to assess the capabilities of every person
**Brian Halligan:** 所以当我做决定的时候,我心里是踏实的,有直觉判断。话说回来,如果有人辜负了信任或者表现确实很差,我认为你应该立刻以非常直接、清晰的方式告诉他们,
**Brian Halligan:** and so when I make a decision, I really feel good about it and have a have a gut feeling. Now that said, if someone does violate the trust or if someone is really doing a bad job, I think it's it behooves you to tell them in a very straightforward, clear way right away
**Sally Kornbluth:** 因为一旦时间拖久了就会越来越难。你认识了他们的孩子、家人、连他们的狗都认识了——"抱歉,你工作做得太差了,再见"——你做不到。所以,我发现当有人表现不如预期时,直接坦率地指出来非常重要,但反过来也要在人们做得好的时候告诉他们。
**Sally Kornbluth:** because once don't wait because once time has gone on, it becomes harder and harder and harder. You know their kids, you know their family, you know their dogs, you know, sorry, you're doing a really bad job. See you. You can't do that. Yeah. And so, um, I find that really just being very frank when someone's doing less than I want to be very clear about what it is, but also the flip side is to tell people when they're doing well. Okay?
**Brian Halligan:** 我觉得这一点有时候很容易被忘记。你容易想"他们做得挺好的,我带这么好一个团队当然是因为我领导得好"。但人们真的非常喜欢被肯定。如果你能做到这一点,那你也就能在事情不顺时给出批评。有一个 CEO 界的老说法:每一次纠正之前应该先给五次表扬。你认同这个比例,还是觉得是扯淡?
我完全认同这个比例,绝对是对的。
**Brian Halligan:** And I think that is sometimes hard to remember. You know, it's very easy to kind of think, "Oh, they're doing a great job and I'm doing such a great job. Of course, I'm leading such a great team." I think people really, really like to hear it when they're doing well. And if you can do that, then you can tell people when things aren't going well. There's an old CEO trope that you should give praise five times. You should give praise to everyone sort of a correction. Do you buy into that ratio or is it a bunch of BS?
Oh, I totally buy into that ratio. I think that's absolutely right. And you know what?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 而且我自己在这方面也有挣扎。
**Sally Kornbluth:** I struggle with that.
**Brian Halligan:** 这又不花你什么成本。
**Brian Halligan:** It doesn't cost you anything.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 确实不花。
**Sally Kornbluth:** No, it doesn't.
**Brian Halligan:** 如果你对那些做得好的人表达感激,这不花你什么。但如果你在别人做得不好的时候也说他好——只是为了暂时安抚一下——那就真的会出问题,因为你不能怪他们觉得自己做得很好,毕竟是你一直这么说的。所以我认为五比一的比例是好的,前提是你真心相信,
**Brian Halligan:** You know, if you're showing gratitudes toward gratitude at the people who are doing things, it doesn't cost you anything. Now, if you tell people they're good when they're not really that good, um, just to kind of temporize, that's where you really run into trouble because you can't blame them for thinking they're doing a great job when you're just kind of saying that to keep them happy and keep things moving along. So, I think that ratio is good if you really believe it,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 但如果你不真心认为,就不要传递那样的信息。
**Sally Kornbluth:** but if you don't believe it, don't propagate that message.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。为了准备这期节目,我跟几位在你手下工作的人聊过。做了功课
**Brian Halligan:** Okay. I spoke with a bunch of people who work for you to prepare. Um, did my home
**Sally Kornbluth:** 都不是真的。他们说了很好的话。好吧,也许
**Sally Kornbluth:** none of it's true. I they said wonderful things. Okay, maybe
**Brian Halligan:** 有人说了一个好几个人都有同感的评价——你"大胆但不咄咄逼人"。我当 CEO 的时候,我既大胆又咄咄逼人。你会给像我这样的人什么建议?我就像大多数 CEO 一样——
**Brian Halligan:** somebody said something that was echoed a bunch that you're bold but not overbearing. And when I was a CEO, I was bold and overbearing. What advice would you give to someone like me? I'm a I'm like most CEOs like how
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我得说,作为科学家培养研究生的经历教了我很多。
**Sally Kornbluth:** well you know I I have to say that the training of a scientist who was training graduate students taught me a lot.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 当研究生可以是非常美好的——你在做很精彩的事情,非常兴奋,非常有趣。
**Sally Kornbluth:** So being a graduate student can be fabulous. you're doing wonderful things. It's so exciting. It's so interesting.
**Brian Halligan:** 但也可能很痛苦。我的一个学生把那种状态叫做"灵魂的至暗茶歇时间"——你在苦苦挣扎,特别煎熬。但你必须继续推进。那主要是实验不成功的时候。实验成功的时候,就超级兴奋、超级有趣。
**Brian Halligan:** It can also be one of my students called it the dark tea time of the soul, you know, you're slogging away. It's like horrible. And but you have to keep pushing. Uh that's mostly when your experiments aren't working. When things are working, it's like super exciting and super fun.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 所以,
**Sally Kornbluth:** And so,
**Brian Halligan:** 顺便说一句,CEO 和创始人也完全一样。完全一样。但我学到的是——你希望实验室里的人把工作做好,尤其是刚建立实验室的时候,他们的实验必须成功,因为你不是每天亲手做实验的那个人。所以你得想办法激励他们。有时候感觉有点 Machiavelli 式的,
但本质上是思考他们需要什么。
**Brian Halligan:** by the way, same for CEOs and founders. Exactly the same. So, but what I learned was that you want things from the people who are working, particularly when you're starting a lab, their experiments have to work because you're not doing the experiments every day. And so, you have to think about ways to motivate them. And sometimes it feels a little bit mchavelian. Y
you know, but what it really is about is thinking what did they need?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 你能给他们什么让他们有动力,从而你也能得到你需要的东西?我学到了很多关于因人施策的方法——弄清楚什么让他们兴奋、什么让他们高效、什么让他们开心。这当然不能无限规模化,但对你的核心团队来说,
**Sally Kornbluth:** What can you give them that they need so that you get what you need from it? And I learned a lot about individually catering to people's motivations, trying to figure out what makes them tick and makes them really productive and what makes them happy. Now, that doesn't scale infinitely, but for your your immediate team,
**Brian Halligan:** 每个人做好工作的驱动因素真的有很大的个体差异。
**Brian Halligan:** there really is a huge amount of individuality in terms of what what makes people do good work.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我认为真正了解每个人的个性对于激励他们来说极其重要。有时候你会想,为什么他们觉得这个有趣?但你得包容,
**Sally Kornbluth:** And I think really getting to know the people individually becomes extremely important in terms of motivating them. And sometimes you're like, why do they think that's fun or interesting? But you have to indulge that,
**Brian Halligan:** 尤其在这里。
**Brian Halligan:** especially here.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好,这很有帮助。有一位专栏作家叫 George Will。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay, that's very helpful. There's a columnist named George Will.
**Brian Halligan:** 是的。
**Brian Halligan:** Yes.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 他形容你——我觉得很准确——"令人费解地"
**Sally Kornbluth:** Um he described it, I think accurately, as inexplicably like
**Brian Halligan:** 怎么说?
**Brian Halligan:** like why?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 充满活力(ebullient)。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yes. Ebullant.
**Brian Halligan:** 我再从自己的角度问一下——我每天就是开会、看收件箱,大部分都是坏消息。
**Brian Halligan:** And I just again I'd ask from my own perspective like my day is like having meetings and reading my inbox. It's mostly bad news, you know.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我真的会非常非常恼火,
**Sally Kornbluth:** I get really, really, really annoyed
**Brian Halligan:** 然后情绪低落。我会低落,所有 CEO 都会低落。
你背后肯定也是一团乱麻,你为什么还能这么有活力?
**Brian Halligan:** and you get down. I would get down and all CEOs get down.
Why are you so bulliant in the face of I'm sure there's this [ __ ] show going on behind you.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 嗯,部分原因是我觉得我的活力是有道理的。这里有一些不可思议的事情在发生。每天我都会听到让我瞠目结舌的发现。我能够为周围的人的发现赋能——本质上是在推动科学前进,而且比我自己做的科研好得多。
**Sally Kornbluth:** So, yeah. Well, you know, in part, I think I'm explicably a brilliant, which is, you know, there's some unbelievable things going on here. Every day I hear a discovery that makes my jaw drop. So for me to be able to enable the discoveries of the people around me, I'm, you know, essentially helping science move forward that's way better than the science I did myself. Yeah.
**Brian Halligan:** 所以这确实很有意思。
**Brian Halligan:** So that's pretty fun.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 是的。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yeah.
**Brian Halligan:** 另外两点。第一,你得从中找到幽默感。有些事真的编都编不出来,这让我保持一点乐观。第二,生物学里有个叫"受体下调"(receptor downregulation)的现象。意思是如果你有一个药物或分子的受体,持续刺激它,最终它会减少并下调。过去几年就是不断地有事情砸过来,所以最终你就会想:好吧,我可以一直活在痛苦里,或者
**Brian Halligan:** The other thing is you two things about it. One is you got to find humor in some of this. Like you really can't make some of this stuff up. Yeah. So that kind of keeps me, you know, a little bit up. The other thing is this um phenomenon in biology called receptor downregulation. What that means is if you have a receptor for a drug or for any molecule, if you keep stimulating it over and over again, eventually it kind of like goes away and downregulates. So the last few years have been just like a constant incoming. And so eventually you're like, okay, well, I could live miserable all the time, okay? Or,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我可以超越它,从我们正在做的酷炫事情中找到乐趣。这不是说我每天不会因为某些事发火——我会的。但你可以发火却不因此而陷入抑郁,只要你不把那些烦人的事太当回事。
**Sally Kornbluth:** you know, I can rise above it and find, you know, pleasure in all the cool things we're doing. It doesn't mean I don't get pissed off every day about something because I do. But you can do that without like becoming depressed about it if you ignore the fact that a lot of it is a lot of it is pretty annoying.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。你经历过一些事情。你会情绪低落。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay. You've been through some stuff. You get down.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 涉及个人的时候会低落。
**Sally Kornbluth:** I get down when it's personal. Okay.
**Brian Halligan:** 比如过去几年那些人身攻击——在国会作证关于反犹主义之后,我收到很多非常针对个人的攻击。我是犹太人,被一遍又一遍地叫做"反犹分子",我觉得这
**Brian Halligan:** So, one thing about the last few years, some of the attacks, so for instance, after I testified in Congress on anti-semitism, I got a lot of incoming that was very personal. And I'm Jewish. To be called an anti-semite over and over again, I did not find
**Sally Kornbluth:** 不合适。所以当涉及个人、当人们说负面的话——有些人发给我的邮件,我就想:你们说话注意点吧。
**Sally Kornbluth:** um appropriate. And so when it's personal, when people say negative things about me, some of the emails people people sent to me, I was sort of like, does wash your mouth out, folks.
**Brian Halligan:** 但你会情绪低落吗?
**Brian Halligan:** But would you get down?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 短暂地会。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Transiently.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 会有一点低落。但对于其他砸向我们这个行业所有人的那些乱七八糟的东西,我不会因此低落。是的,我会短暂地低落。但我的应对方式是不停地跟人说——我有点把情绪写在脸上,把它倾吐出来释放掉。这可能会让对方有点疲惫,但
**Sally Kornbluth:** My my I would get a little bit. Now, I don't get down about all the other junk that's coming into everybody in our sector. But yes, I would get transiently down. But the way I deal with it is to um just like, you know, talk to people incessantly. Like I'm a little bit of a you know, wear it on my sleeve, get it out of my system. It may wear down the other people a little bit, but
**Brian Halligan:** 我绝对也是这样的。
**Brian Halligan:** that's definitely how I operate.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。说到这个——你刚上任,连 Infinite Corridor 的路都还没认全,就被传唤去国会了。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay. You brought that up. Um you just started. You barely know your way around the infinite quarter and you got summoned to Congress.
**Brian Halligan:** 是的。
你完全没预料到吧。我完全没预料到。
收到传唤的时候脑子里在想什么?你打了谁的电话?
首先,这不是选择。有人问我你为什么要去?
**Brian Halligan:** Yes.
Uh what was your You did not see that coming, I assume. I did not see that coming.
The summons, what was going on inside of your head? Who did you call?
Well, first of all, it wasn't a choice. People ask me, why did you go?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我去是因为传唤上写着:如果你不来,这是正式传唤,你不来就会被发出强制传票。这是第一点。
**Sally Kornbluth:** And I went because it said if you don't go, it's a summon and you will be subpoenaed if you don't come. Okay, that's the first thing. Um,
**Brian Halligan:** 我显然第一时间跟团队商量了,包括像 Alfred Ironside——我们的通讯副校长。我也跟很多其他大学的朋友交流了。我那时很天真。整件事让我最失望的不是它给个人带来的困难,而是它是一场戏。
**Brian Halligan:** look, you know, the first people I obviously talked to are the team, including people like Alfred Iron Ironside, you know, our VP for communications. We talked to I talked to a lot of other uh friends in universities. I did not I was naive. I think the biggest disappointment to me of that whole thing was not that it was hard to deal with personally. It was that it was theater.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 就是一场戏。
**Sally Kornbluth:** It was
**Brian Halligan:** 我大学主修政治学,专注美国政治制度,我对那场对话和提问的质量非常失望。我知道这听起来很天真,但我以为我们是在真正进行交流,结果不是,那是政治表演。我准备得不算差——如果你听完整的
四五个小时的证词,或者读全文记录,
**Brian Halligan:** and you know I was a political science major in college focusing on American political institutions and I was so disappointed in the quality of the dialogue and the questioning. I I know that sounds really naive, but I thought we were really having an interchange, but it wasn't. It was political theater. Yes. And I was ill well, not that I was ill equipped. I actually think I was prepared pretty well. And if you listen to to the full
testimony, the full four hours or five hours or whatever it is or read the transcript,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 基本上直到最后那个"陷阱时刻"之前都还好。这让我想起——你记得 Michael Dukakis 的那个时刻吗?被问到妻子遭到攻击的假设时,他的回答非常理性冷静。
**Sally Kornbluth:** it was basically fine until sort of the gotcha moment at the end. But it reminded me a lot. You know, I should have done I it reminded me of the remember the Michael Dukakus moment uh when Yeah. Well, no. Uh when they were asking about his wife being attacked and it was very factual.
**Brian Halligan:** 我真希望当时……我基本上也是那样做的——保持了非常事实性的回答。我当时应该说的是:"天哪,在我们校园里没有人会说那种话。"但事后诸葛亮嘛。
**Brian Halligan:** I wish. And so I sort of did that. I maintained a very factual. What I should have said was, "Oh my god, nobody would say that on our campus." But you know, hindsight is 2020.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。所以你希望能重来一次。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay. So you wish you had a doover.
**Brian Halligan:** 也不完全是,因为我不想再经历一遍。但我会用不同的方式处理。
**Brian Halligan:** I not really because I don't want to do it again. But but I would have handled it differently.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。我假设你的律师和团队都帮你做了准备,你坐在那里看着 Harvard 校长和 UPenn 校长先回答,然后你的回答跟她们差不多,稍微好一点。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay. So I assume you were prepped by your lawyers and everybody for that and you're sitting there listening to the president of Harvard and the president of UPEN. You're watching the whole thing and then you answer the question kind of similarly to them a little bit better.
**Brian Halligan:** 不,那个问题我是第一个被问的,这就是问题所在。
**Brian Halligan:** No, I was first on that question. That was the problem.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 哦,有意思。我以为 Harvard 是第一个。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Oh, interesting. They'd been impressed. Harvard was first.
**Brian Halligan:** 是的。之前每个问题都是先 Harvard、再 Penn,直到最后那个问题。
**Brian Halligan:** Yeah. They'd been going Harvard, Penn for every question until that last question.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 你当时知道自己搞砸了吗?
**Sally Kornbluth:** Did you know you had messed up that second?
**Brian Halligan:** 不知道。你什么时候发现自己"出名了"?
**Brian Halligan:** No, I didn't. When did you find out that your 15 minutes was right now?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 在 Saturday Night Live 演我之前就知道了。不过
**Sally Kornbluth:** Well, well before I saw it on Saturday Night Live, but I I uh you know, I was
**Brian Halligan:** 你看手机了还是得走?
**Brian Halligan:** Did you look at your phone or you have to go?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 没有,因为当时跟我说话的大部分人都觉得"你表现还行"。他们没有意识到那个瞬间会病毒式传播。等我一看报纸就看到了。然后当我开始收到 Duke 老朋友的一连串短信——"你还好吗?"——当我连续收到十条这样的短信时,我就知道外面有什么很糟糕的事了。
**Sally Kornbluth:** No, because most people who talk to me were like, "Yeah, you did pretty well." They didn't realize that that moment would become viral. You know, as soon as I read the newspaper, I saw it. And you know, then I started whenever I start getting a lot of texts from friends from my old days at Duke. How you doing? I know there's something really bad out there. When I get like 10 texts in a row, it's like, "Oh my god."
**Brian Halligan:** 但是
**Brian Halligan:** But, you know,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我采访过的很多人都经历过重大危机,这一次是个大的。
**Sally Kornbluth:** so many of these I talked to and I've interviewed go through major crisis. This is a whopper.
**Brian Halligan:** 那是什么感受?
**Brian Halligan:** Um, what was it like?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 首先我认为
**Sally Kornbluth:** So, first of all, I think
**Brian Halligan:** 人们希望自己的领导者冷静。对。
有分寸。首先我认为无论如何——对我来说——不管内心在想什么,很多时候内心就是,
**Brian Halligan:** you people want their leaders to be calm. Yes.
And measured. And so, first of all, I think no matter what for me, no matter what I was thinking inside and a lot of it was like, you know,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好的。很高兴听到你这么说,因为你确实表现得冷静有度,
**Sally Kornbluth:** fine. I'm happy to hear that cuz you were calm and measured,
**Brian Halligan:** 但在外面你必须冷静有度。你内心有人的正常反应。
**Brian Halligan:** but I you have to be calm and measured on the outside. I mean, you have a human reaction.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 但我就是觉得太不公平了。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Um, but I just I felt it was so unfair.
**Brian Halligan:** 有意思的是——这在我家里几乎是个笑话——我最大的软肋之一就是我不想被无端指责做了没做过的事。我甚至看很多犯罪节目,最让我受不了的就是那些被冤枉的人。所以在那整个事件中,我觉得自己被指控持有某些观点或被别人从我的话里过度推断,这对我来说是问题的核心。我觉得很不公平。但我们这里有很多事要做,所以我必须翻过去。我觉得你在危机的后续处理上做得很好——这对每一位 CEO 都是教训:澄清你的言论,然后把注意力重新拉回到
**Brian Halligan:** And it's interesting because one of my biggest it's sort of almost a joke in my family. One of my biggest sort of Achilles heel heels is the notion that I don't want to be accused of something I didn't do. And you know, I even watch lots of crime shows etc. And the ones that really like I can barely watch are the people who like are falsely accused of crimes. So I felt during that whole incident that I was being accused of having certain views or thinking certain things and people extrapolated from that and that to me was the crux of it. I felt it was unfair. But you know we have a lot to do around here. So I had to move past it. I thought you handled the aftermath what and I think this is a lesson for every CEO through crisis like you clarified your remarks and you got to focus back on
**Sally Kornbluth:** 你就得把注意力拉回来。我是
**Sally Kornbluth:** you just got to focus back now I was
**Brian Halligan:** 这是一件好事。第二件好事是董事会公开力挺你,另外两位
**Brian Halligan:** that was one good thing happened the second good thing happened is the board publicly came out to you and the other two
**Sally Kornbluth:** 对
**Sally Kornbluth:** y
**Brian Halligan:** 之后不久就辞职了,没错。
来谈谈这两件事。先说澄清声明——你打了谁的电话?你怎么思考的?速度非常快——那是出色的领导力。
**Brian Halligan:** stepped down shortly after those remarks that's right
so talk about both those things let's start with the remarks the clarification who did you call how did you think about that it was very quick like that was excellent Excellent. That was excellent leadership.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我尽量不去制造新一轮新闻周期,
**Sally Kornbluth:** You know, I tried I tried to not create another news cycle
**Brian Halligan:** 我觉得我们有很长一段时间做的一件事就是
对此保持沉默。我不打算到处上电视节目,我只是对我们的社区讲清楚。我觉得这是第一点。
**Brian Halligan:** and I think one thing we did for quite a long time was
to be very quiet about it. I mean, you know, I wasn't about to start like showing up on TV shows and I was just very clear with our community. I think that's the first thing.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。另一件事是关于我们的董事会/理事会(Corporation)的支持——那实际上是决定我能在 MIT 存活下来的关键时刻。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay. But the other thing in terms of our um our board or corporation being supportive that that is actually the pivotal moment in terms of me surviving at MIT. Yep.
**Brian Halligan:** 因为他们的态度是:我们刚雇了她,表现挺好的,走开。
**Brian Halligan:** Because they were like we just hired her. It was fine. Go away.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 是的。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yeah.
**Brian Halligan:** 这创造了一个我感到有大量支持的环境。我可以继续推进 MIT 的工作。直到今天,当我做什么决定的时候,我不会回头想"天哪他们会不会因此解雇我?"因为我们有很好的关系,保持沟通。这不是说他们某天不会解雇我,但目前我感到——透明、良好的交流——我很快就知道他们是支持我的。另外,我们董事会的很多人确实听了完整的证词、读了全部记录。当有人来质问"你们怎么不解雇她?"他们会说"你听了完整的内容吗?"然后把记录分发出去或者跟人们解释。所以这不仅仅是口头上的支持,他们实际上在传递正确的信息。我觉得这非常关键。我的总结是:你在危机中保持了冷静,你有一个力挺你的好董事会——这是无价的——你以深思熟虑的方式澄清了你的话。我认为这是一个所有 CEO 都能学习的最佳实践。好。最近还有类似的——不算是危机——应该说是"危机规避"。联邦政府给你发了"高等教育学术卓越契约",发给了 11 所学校包括我们。你是第一个回复的——远在截止日期之前——而且你基本上是非常有礼貌地说了"不",并解释了原因。为什么你是第一个?
**Brian Halligan:** And that really created an environment that I felt I had a lot of support. I could keep moving on with what we were doing at MIT. And you know, to this day when I do something, I don't look over my shoulder and think, "Oh my god, are they going to fire me over this?" Because, you know, we have a great relationship. We talk. Now, that doesn't mean they won't fire me for something someday, but at the moment, I will say I I feel like transparency, great interchange, and I knew right away they were supportive. The other thing is many many people on our board did listen to the whole thing, did read the whole transcript and when people would come to them and say, "Oh my god, how could you not fire her?" They would say, "Did you listen to the whole thing?" And then they would distribute it or talk to people about it. And so it wasn't only that we're being supportive in in voice, they actually were propagating the correct message. So I think that made a huge difference. My takeaways were you were calm, you were in a crisis, you were calm, you had a good board that backed you, which is invaluable, and you clarified your statements in a thoughtful way. And I think that's I think that's a best practice right there that all CEOs can kind of learn from. Okay. There's been some similar I wouldn't say crisis like actually crisis averted. Um the federal government sent you the compact for academic excellence in higher ed. They sent it to 11 institutions including us. You were the first to respond which was interesting way before the deadline and you basically very politely said no. And here's why. Why were you first?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 几个原因。首先,当我收到那份契约后看了一下,我说:"我绝不可能签这个东西。"
**Sally Kornbluth:** Well, so a couple of reasons. First of all, when I received the compact, I looked at it. I said, "There's no way I'm signing this thing."
**Brian Halligan:** 立刻就决定了。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay. Right away.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 立刻。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Right away.
**Brian Halligan:** 我打电话给理事会主席 Mark Orberg,跟他说,
**Brian Halligan:** And I called uh Mark Orberg, the chair of the corporation. I said,
**Sally Kornbluth:** "Mark,我不会签这个东西。"他说:"谁能逼你签?"所以我马上就知道有主席的支持。然后我们交给了执行委员会,所有人都支持,最终整个董事会也支持。这是第一步。
**Sally Kornbluth:** "Mark, I'm not signing this thing." thing and he goes, "Who's going to make you sign this thing?" Yeah. So, right away I knew I had the chair's support and we went to the executive committee. Everyone was supportive and then eventually the whole board. So, that was the first thing.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我们之所以比较快地单独发声、而不是集体行动,部分原因是在所有这些危机中,每所学校都有不同的故事要讲。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Part of the reason I think we came out quickly was rather than collectively is because this has been true throughout all these crises, every school has a little bit of a different story to tell. Yeah.
**Brian Halligan:** 而这次的核心——回到你最初的问题——是关于精英制。那封信的具体条款我不在乎。他们谈的是根据行为或承诺来给予优先资助,而不是基于科学实力(scientific merit)。对我来说,这个国家科学卓越的基石就是科学实力。MIT 在精英制方面有一个很棒的故事可讲——
**Brian Halligan:** And the crux of this coming back to your first question was about merit. You know, I didn't care what the particulars of the letter were. They talked about giving preferential funding based on behaviors or commitments, not on scientific merit. And to me, the bedrock of scientific excellence in this country is scientific merit. Now, MIT has a great story to tell in terms of merit. You know,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 非常棒的故事,
**Sally Kornbluth:** awesome story,
**Brian Halligan:** 非常棒。没有校友子女优先录取(legacy admissions),没有捐赠录取(development admissions),家庭收入低于 20 万美元免学费,我们比其他学校更早恢复了 SAT 要求,等等。我们在精英制方面的故事如此有说服力,我完全没有犹豫。我们不用想"该怎么措辞",故事本身就说明了一切。
**Brian Halligan:** awesome story to tell. No legacy admissions, no development admissions, under 200k uh family income, free tuition. We reinstated the SATs before other schools, etc. We had such a great story to tell that in terms of merit. I didn't really have any hesitancy. We didn't have to think, well, how can we couch this? The story sort of told itself.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 所以我不是想做什么大声明或代表别人说话。我只是觉得我们有好故事要讲,就把它讲出来。另外我也不想戳任何人的眼睛。我们追求的语气是"谢谢,但不了"——我们愿意跟别人公平竞争。
**Sally Kornbluth:** So, I wasn't trying to, you know, you know, make a huge statement or speak for anyone else. I just felt like we had a good story to tell and we're going to tell it. The other thing is I didn't want to poke anyone in the eye. I thought the tone that we were striving for was thanks but no thanks. Like we'll compete with other people.
**Brian Halligan:** 那封回信写得非常好。谁写的?
**Brian Halligan:** The letter was extremely well written. Who wrote that?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。我们有一位出色的撰稿人,Martha Edison。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay. So, we have a fantastic writer, Martha Edison.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。她有公关团队。每位 CEO 都有这样的人。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay. She has a PR team. Sure. All CEOs have one of these.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 应该有一位好撰稿人来帮助你,这一点我很确定。Martha 做的是先写了一份涵盖所有要点的长初稿,然后四五个人连续几天日夜迭代修改。我不会从零开始写出她写的所有内容,但有些部分是我自己写的,有些是团队不同成员写的。最后其实就剩了很少几个词,反而又花了我们几天时间。我们跟董事会执行委员会坐在一起讨论那封信,想把某些措辞精确到位。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Well, someone should have a great writer to help them. I'll tell you that. But what Martha did was generate a long draft on all these points and then four or five of us iterated for multiple days around the clock. Okay? you know, so I would not have written everything she wrote by scratch, but there are uh pieces of that that I did write myself. There are pieces of that that various members of the team wrote and actually we came down to a very few words at the end that actually took us a couple extra days and we were sitting with the executive committee of our board discussing the letter and we wanted to get some of the words exactly right. Yep.
**Brian Halligan:** 我们对不同表述争论来争论去。我记得我们的 EVP Glenn Shore——他是做财务的——最后想出了一个措辞,所有人就说:好了,定了。所以这里面有大量的集体思考。我觉得我们之所以能达成共识,是因为我们作为团队配合默契、能够坦率。Martha 写了什么,我会说"这不是我们想表达的"——
**Brian Halligan:** And so we were arguing about different things and I remember our EVP Glenn Shore who is a financial person finally like came up with a phrase and everyone was like okay we're done here. So there was a lot of group think thinking about this um and I think we came to a common message because we hang together well as a team and we were able to be blunt. You know Martha writes something I'm like that is not what we want to say.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay.
**Brian Halligan:** 她就说"那你告诉我你想说什么"。你提到了很多次董事会——比我预想的要多。我辅导的所有 CEO 在上市前都得组建董事会。
**Brian Halligan:** You know she's like okay tell me what you want to say. brought up the board a bunch, more than I thought you would. Uh, and I all my CEOs have to build boards before they go public.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 是的。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yes.
**Brian Halligan:** 关于组建和管理董事会有什么建议?
**Brian Halligan:** Advice on building a board in managing a board.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。我显然不是组建这个董事会的人,但我通过治理委员会有发言权。首先,我们的董事会非常大——75 人。这跟大多数公司不一样。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yeah. So, I obviously didn't build this board, but I do have input via our governance committee. Now, in terms of who joins the board, you know, first of all, we have a very large board, 75 people. So, that is not like most uh, you know, most companies.
**Brian Halligan:** 但你肯定有一个核心圈子。
**Brian Halligan:** But you must have a core group.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 有的,执行委员会。
**Sally Kornbluth:** We do the executive committee. Yeah,
**Brian Halligan:** 你需要多元的专业背景,
**Brian Halligan:** look, you want a range of expertise,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 但根本上你需要的是聪明、有诚信、对不同观点持开放态度的人。
**Sally Kornbluth:** but fundamentally you want people who are smart, with integrity, and open to arguments,
**Brian Halligan:** 好。
**Brian Halligan:** okay?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 如果有人带着非常强硬的观点来、不愿意考虑其他视角,那会极其令人沮丧。我之所以提到董事会这么多,老实说是因为拥有一个你如此合拍的董事会并不常见。我有全国各地的朋友,有些人有很好的董事会,有些人不得不一直周旋。我真正喜欢的是他们"管治理不管运营"(governance but not management),
**Sally Kornbluth:** You know, if people come in with very strong views and they're unwilling to think about other viewpoints, it's going to be incredibly frustrating. Part of the reason I brought it up, honestly, is because it's unusual to have a board that you sync with so easily. I have friends all over the country and some of them have great boards, some of them don't and have to always kind of be maneuvering. What I really like is their governance but not management
**Brian Halligan:** 让我做我的工作。所以我在这方面挺幸运的。这不是说我们什么都同意——事实上契约信的一些内容我打了很多电话,
**Brian Halligan:** and so they let me sort of do my job and so I've been, you know, I've been pretty lucky that way. That doesn't mean we agree on everything. In fact, some of the things in the compact letter I had a lot of phone calls
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我明白。
**Sally Kornbluth:** I see
**Brian Halligan:** 跟人说"不,我不会这样做"或"不,我不会那样说"。但这是一种开放的交流。我不觉得我必须字斟句酌,我觉得他们也不必。我认为这才是关键:你可以跟他们坦诚相待、他们也会对你坦诚,而且不会上升到生死存亡的级别——
**Brian Halligan:** with people and said no, I'm not going to do that or no, I'm not going to say that. But it's kind of an open exchange. I don't really feel like I have to parse my words and I don't think they do either. That's what I think is critical. People that you can be honest with that'll be honest with you and it's not existential like if someone is real feeling like
**Sally Kornbluth:** 就是说他们在危机中也很冷静。所有董事会都得应对危机。
**Sally Kornbluth:** that's like they were all also calm in a crisis in boards all deal with crisis.
**Brian Halligan:** 他们很冷静,很多人曾经是或正在做 CEO。你不是要把董事会全填满 CEO,但你需要经历过危机、担任过其他董事会成员的人。
**Brian Halligan:** They were calm and many of them are CE have been CEOs or are CEOs. It's not like you want to fill your whole board with CEOs but you want people who have navigated crises been on other boards. Yeah,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 经历过高风险局面的人,理解保持冷静是渡过危机的关键一环。
**Sally Kornbluth:** been in high stakes situations and understand that staying calm is a huge piece of managing to navigate the crisis.
**Brian Halligan:** 好,回到 MIT 本身。这里是一个相当去中心化的地方——非常去中心化。你怎么决定什么时候要说"不行,这个边缘事务我要收回中心来统一管理"?然后你又是怎么决定推进哪些大型计划的?集中化的问题比选择做什么计划要棘手得多。每个人都想拥有自己的一切。在预算危机或者确实需要消除重复的时候,这非常困难。每个人都把自己的研究项目、自己的团队视为亲生孩子。所以很难。我们的做法是在绝对必要的时候——出于效率、财务原因、或者因为集中管理确实更好——才去做,然后你慢慢消化那些噪音,直到人们意识到确实这样更好。
至于选择做什么计划——在 MIT 这样的地方很多是自下而上的,我们观察哪里有出色的工作正在进行,然后去捕捉和放大它。我想通过这些计划做的——我们有一系列校长主导的计划——是鼓励跨学科合作,这又回到了每个人都处于高水平这一点。不管你跟谁合作,你都会得到好的合作伙伴。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay, just kind of bringing it back to MIT, it's a pretty decentralized place, like really decentralized. How do you decide when it's like, no, that thing that's on the edge, I'm going to bring that in the center and we're going to centralize that. Uh, and then how do you decide like you've got some big initiatives you're pushing out there. How do you decide? Yeah. So the the the centralization thing is a lot thornier than the what initiatives you're going to do. Everybody wants one of their own everything. Yeah. And when you're in a budget crisis or you really have to it's getting rid of duplication is incredibly difficult. Everyone views their own research program their own you know team as like you know their personal babies right you and so it's hard. So we try to do it when it's absolutely necessary either for efficiency or financial reasons or because the function will just work way better and then you kind of navigate the noise until people realize like yeah actually this is kind of better in terms of the initiatives at a place like MIT a lot of it is from the bottom up in that we look around we see what great work is going on and we try to capture it.
I see. So what I wanted to do with these initiatives, we have a you know a suite of presidential initiatives. Now I wanted to encourage interdisciplinarity and that comes back to everybody being at a high level. So whoever you collaborate with, you're going to get good partners. Um
**Sally Kornbluth:** 我能打断一下吗?
**Sally Kornbluth:** can I interrupt you on that?
**Brian Halligan:** 好。
我辅导的每一位 CEO 都会问我:"怎么对付那些天才混蛋?那些首席傲娇(primadonna)?"抱歉,
**Brian Halligan:** Yes.
Every CEO I talk to asks me, "What do I do with the primadana? The brilliant asshole." Sorry,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 每个地方都有。
**Sally Kornbluth:** every place has them.
**Brian Halligan:** MIT 有很多首席傲娇。
你怎么对付他们?我经历过不少首席傲娇。MIT 的大多数首席傲娇——比起有些地方来说其实不算多——至少他们有真本事。
**Brian Halligan:** I We have a lot of primadas at MIT.
How do you deal with the primadanas? So you know most I've look I've encountered primadanas in my career. Most of the primadonas that I've seen at MIT and there's not that many compared to some places at least they have the goods.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay.
**Brian Halligan:** 最糟糕的是那种自以为了不起、其实不怎么样的人。如果有人来找我说"我的项目真的很重要,非常关键和出色"——他们刚得了诺贝尔奖——我不会跟他们争。这里的东西确实非常厉害。我真的没有遇到过有人来为一个我觉得质量很低的东西辩护。
**Brian Halligan:** The worst thing is like someone who thinks they're great when they're not. Like if someone wants to come to me and say my program is really important, this is really, you know, critical and fantastic and like you know they've just won a Nobel Prize. I'm not going to argue with them. I mean, the stuff here is really amazing. I really haven't had someone come to defend something that I thought was really like low quality.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay.
**Brian Halligan:** 但这也让"削减"变得更难。
你怎么削减?CEO 们总是说"我们去中心化,去中心化",然后突然说"不不不,我们要开始收回来了。"尤其现在有个叫"创始人模式"(Founder Mode)的概念,你听说过吧。
**Brian Halligan:** But that does make it harder to take things away.
How do you take things away? Like CEOs all the time, they're like, "We're decentralized. Decentralized." And it's like, "No, no, no. We're going to start." Particularly now there's a thing called founder mode. You heard of it. Yeah.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 是的。比如 Jack Dorsey,他刚裁了 40% 的员工。很多人在搞集中化——
**Sally Kornbluth:** And like you look at Jack Dorsey for example, he just laid off 40% of employees. Lots of people bring centralized
**Brian Halligan:** 微观管理正在流行。
你怎么看这些?首先别忘了我们的劳动力有很大一部分是终身教授(tenured),
**Brian Halligan:** micromanagement's in style. Uh
well what's your take on all that? First of all remember that a big part of our workforce is tenured.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 所以这是一个非常不同的环境。在这些角色中我一直发现,你想多说"是",但必须大量说"不"。我发现如果你跟对方深入交流、给出经过深思熟虑的理由——不是简单地"我不喜欢你"或"我不想做这个"——大部分人最终会接受。不是所有人。我确信有人因为我说了不或者砍了什么东西而讨厌我。但总体而言,人们理解你必须做这些决定。
好。教育正处在一个有趣的时间点。现在采访你很应景。在我的世界里,高等教育正遭受很多批评——Thiel Fellowship、Marc Andreessen 说不要上大学、Alex Karp 有 Palantir Fellowship。这些都在发生,很有意思,
**Sally Kornbluth:** So so that's a very different you know environment to navigate in. Um you know what I found all along these roles like you want to say yes a bunch of times but you have to say no a huge amount of your time. And I found if you engage someone and really give them a good rationale you've really thought through it. It's not just like I don't like you or I don't want to do this. Most people will ultimately accept it. Not all people. I'm sure there are people out there that hate me because I said no or took something away. But in general, I think people understand that you have to make these decisions.
Yeah. Okay. Education's at a funny point. It's an interesting time to interview you. My world, there's a lot of criticism of higher ed between the Teal Fellowships and Mark Andre saying to not go to college and Alex Karp has the Palunteer Fellowship for people. So, all that's going on, which is interesting,
**Brian Halligan:** 然后我们又有了 AI。
五年后教育会是什么样子?
**Brian Halligan:** and now we have AI.
What the hell does education look like in five years?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好问题。我们讨论这个很多。首先,大学体验远不止某些具体技能。人们——校友——跟我谈 MIT 如何改变了他们的人生。不是因为某门特定的课或某项特定技能,而是整个环境。
**Sally Kornbluth:** That's a great question. We're talking a lot about that. First of all, the college experience is so much more than some specific set of skills. Yeah. So, people talk to me, alums talk to me about how MIT changed their lives. It's not because of some particular class or some particular skill they acquired. It's the whole environment.
**Brian Halligan:** 其实是我的课。
**Brian Halligan:** My class actually, it was my class.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 是你的课。他们指名道姓地说。所以整个大学体验本身就很重要,但我认为
**Sally Kornbluth:** It was your class. they they say that by name you know and so that's you know the whole college experience is in part is important but I think
**Brian Halligan:** 我同意这一点。我说起 Sloan——我得到了一些资历,学到了很多,建立了很好的人脉网络。现在这些东西哪里都能学了。
**Brian Halligan:** I agree with that like I say Sloan it's like I got some pedigree from it I learned a bunch and I got a great network you can learn this stuff anywhere now
**Sally Kornbluth:** 没错。另外一点是——我们归根到底还是在培养人。无论 AI 怎么发展,我们都希望从 MIT 毕业的学生能把 AI 当作增强自身能力的工具。所以他们必须学会在这个环境中生存。我不知道你怎么想,但对我来说——我仍然不确定你需要在脑子里装多少东西才能进行创造性思考,又有多少可以外包出去。当我们思考该训练学生做什么的时候——如果你用三种不同方式问 AI 同一个问题,你会得到三个完全不同的答案。那我们怎么教学生思考这个问题?你需要知道多少才能判断 AI 是否在胡编?所以我们一些同事在讨论——学生还需要学基础编程吗?当然需要,因为他们必须能判断眼前的代码是否正确,必须头脑中有概念才能问出正确的问题。写作也一样。写作就是思考。让 AI 帮你写一篇东西跟你自己从草稿开始思考一个问题是不一样的。当然你可以让 AI 帮助你迭代。所以我认为未来我们会看到:第一,在 MIT 这样的地方,真正思考如何最有效地使用这些工具。第二,MIT 一直是一个强调"动手+动脑"的地方,造东西很重要。AI 在软件方面在飞速前进,但物理 AI(Physical AI)还没真正到位——我看过那些视频,机器人试着把一罐可乐送到房间另一头,结果把可乐倒过来一路洒。还有很多事要做。
**Sally Kornbluth:** that's right and the other thing is fundamentally we're still training human beings you know no matter what AI does we want people who graduate from MIT to be used you to use AI as a tool that can augment their performance And so they have to learn to live in this environment. So I don't know how you think about this, but for me like I still am not sure how much you need to have in your head to think creatively versus how much you have to offload. Yeah. Um when we think about what we need to train our students to do, if you ask an AI agent a question three different ways, you get three completely different answers. And so how do we teach our students to think about that? Um how much do you have to know to know if AI is hallucinating or just plain wrong? So there's a discussion going on among some of our folks about, you know, do our students really need to know basic coding and like yes they do because they have to know if what they're looking at is correct and they have to sort of have a concept in their heads to ask the right questions regarding coding. Same with writing. Writing is thinking. So to just ask, you know, AI to write something for you, it's not the same as thinking through a draft, thinking through a problem. Yes, you can have AI help you and iterate. So, I think what we're going to see is first of all at a place like MIT really thinking about how you use these tools most effectively. Second thing, MIT's always been this you know uh you know hand in hand in mind kind of place where building things is really important and in one in one way AI is forging ahead but I think physical AI uh is not really quite there yet. You know, I I've seen like, you know, videos of, you know, a robot trying to like, you know, uh, bring a a can of Coke across the room and, you know, they turn the Coke upside down and are trailing the Coke the Coke. There's a lot we need to do.
**Brian Halligan:** 教室会消失吗?
**Brian Halligan:** Classrooms go away.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好问题。我不确定。我觉得可以想象一种类似 Oxbridge 导师制的模式出现——
**Sally Kornbluth:** It's a good question. I don't know. I think you could imagine a kind of Oxbridge style tutorial system coming out where
**Brian Halligan:** 学生分组跟 AI 导师一起学习,然后去课堂上跟教授讨论。我不知道传统的灌输式大课
**Brian Halligan:** you know students work in groups with an AI tutor that then go to class and have a discussion with faculty. I don't know if we're going to see the traditional dididactic lecture
**Sally Kornbluth:** 在未来多年是否还能存活——毕竟有那么多不同的方式可以吸收事实性知识。但人际互动、讨论、来自教授和同学的批判性反馈——那才是产出大学体验和 MIT 式教育的东西。所以我觉得这些会消失吗?不会。
**Sally Kornbluth:** survive over many years when there's so many different ways to take in that factual material. But the human interaction, the discussions, the critiques from faculty, from fellow students, that really is what produces the, you know, college experience and the education that you come out of a place like MIT with. So, do I think that's going away? I don't think so.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。如果你有一个 17 岁的女儿,
**Brian Halligan:** Okay. If you had a 17-year-old daughter,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 如果有的话,
**Sally Kornbluth:** if I did,
**Brian Halligan:** 你希望她学什么?
**Brian Halligan:** uh, what would you want her to study?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 这很有意思。我有一个 30 岁的女儿,她是外科医生。我觉得这是一个很好的选择。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Oh, that's interesting. Well, I have a 30-year-old daughter who is a surgeon. And I think that's a pretty good thing. I think that's a pretty good thing to have done.
**Brian Halligan:** 外科手术的某些部分其实已经在被取代了,但我不觉得
**Brian Halligan:** Parts of surgery have actually already gone away, but I don't think the
**Sally Kornbluth:** 整体上——是的。
**Sally Kornbluth:** whole Yeah. Yeah. So,
**Brian Halligan:** 作为一个做过很多手术的人,我不觉得
**Brian Halligan:** as someone who's had a lot of surgery, I don't think
**Sally Kornbluth:** 外科医生会消失。而且她对机器人学非常感兴趣。
**Sally Kornbluth:** that seems to be a pretty good thing. Even if, you know, she's very interested in robotics.
**Brian Halligan:** 如果你自己是 17 岁,你要上大学,你学什么?
**Brian Halligan:** If you were 17, you're 17, you're going to school. What do you study?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 很有意思的问题。我觉得有很多科学领域仍然——如果我要选一个生物学方向——我是生物学家。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yeah. That's very interesting. Um, I think there are a lot of areas of science that are still, you know, if I were picking an area of biology, for instance, now I'm I'm a biologist. Yes.
**Brian Halligan:** 我会选神经科学(neuroscience)。我觉得大脑的奥秘——
**Brian Halligan:** I would pick neuroscience. I think the mysteries of the brain
**Sally Kornbluth:** 或者免疫学(immunology),我认为它将
**Sally Kornbluth:** or immunology which I think is just
**Brian Halligan:** 影响我们健康的方方面面。
**Brian Halligan:** going to impact all areas of our health.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 所以
**Sally Kornbluth:** So
**Brian Halligan:** 对,神经科学或免疫学。
**Brian Halligan:** so nent
**Sally Kornbluth:** 有些领域在未来还有很多很多年的发现等着我们,
**Sally Kornbluth:** yeah there are areas that I think have many many years of discovery ahead of us
**Brian Halligan:** 但我要说——只选择你真正有热情、真正想做思考者的领域。我读研究生的时候,你可以靠测序一个基因就拿到博士学位——那是技术活,但智识上并不是特别有挑战。我现在想到那些做科学发现的公司——真正优秀的学生现在等于有了很多"双手"可以调用,但他们仍然得是那个做创造性思考的人。如果你只是想做"那双手",就别读博了,因为那个角色
**Brian Halligan:** but I would say only pick areas where you really have a passion and you really want to be a thinker. So when I was in graduate school, you could get a PhD sequencing a gene, a single gene, and it was technical work, but it wasn't actually super intellectually engaging. I think now about companies that are, you know, for instance, science discovery companies where the really great student will now have this the equivalent of lots of hands at their their disposal, but they still got to be the creative one and do the thinking. If you were just going to be the person who were the hands, don't do a PhD because that that
**Sally Kornbluth:** 五年后可能就变了。就像 Google 外包了信息,这些 AI 系统正在外包认知。我不知道。我觉得会变化很大。我自己也在想我的课明年怎么上——
**Sally Kornbluth:** that could change five years from now. Like Google outsource information. These AI systems are kind of outsourcing cognition. It's I don't know. I I think it's going to change a lot. I don't know. Like I'm thinking about my course and like what do I do next year? I'm trying to think about how I
**Brian Halligan:** 就算你想当医生,想想 AI 正在怎样改变图像分析。你现在还会当放射科医生吗?也许会也许不会。你现在会当病理科医生吗?也许会也许不会。我们还不知道人类判断到底需要多少——在"这是不是癌症"这种问题上,但那不是他们做的唯一判断。所以我觉得我们还了解得不够。
**Brian Halligan:** I mean even if you're thinking about being a physician, think about how much AI is changing image analysis. Would you be a radiologist now? Maybe, maybe not. you know, uh would you be a pathologist now? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know because we still don't know how much human judgment we know in in terms of like is this cancer, is this not cancer, but that's not the only judgment folks are making. So, I I think we don't know enough yet.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 好。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Okay.
**Brian Halligan:** 我希望学生具备的——我们真正想要的——是学生要有好奇心,教他们批判性思维。17 岁的人不需要选定职业方向,也不需要选一个能做一辈子的职业,
**Brian Halligan:** And I want students to be what we really want is students to be curious and teach them to think critically. A 17-year-old doesn't have to pick their career, nor do they have to pick a career that's going to last the rest of their lives. Yeah,
**Sally Kornbluth:** 因为现在人们不断在转型。
**Sally Kornbluth:** because people pivot constantly now.
**Brian Halligan:** 你关心毕业生的职业走向吗?比如计算机科学的学生,很多去量化交易公司,很多读博,有些做创业。我希望更多人去创业。MIT 关心这个吗?
**Brian Halligan:** Um, do you care where like what the vocational path of graduates do? Like computer science students like a lot of them go to quant shops. A lot of them go and do their PhD. Some do startups. I wish more would do startups. Uh, does MIT care?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 这很有意思。这对我不是新问题,因为我自己带生物实验室的时候,大约一半学生去了工业界,一半留在学术界。在当时,这在很多教授中就已经有争议了——他们觉得我们只应该培养留在学术界的博士。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Uh, you know, that's interesting. So, I've this this is not a new question to me because even when I had a biology lab, Yeah. About half my students went to industry and half went to academia. And at that time even that was controversial among a lot of faculty who really thought we should only be spending our time and effort training PhDs and we're going to go into academia.
**Brian Halligan:** 我从来不特别在意他们去哪里。
**Brian Halligan:** I have never particularly cared where people go. Okay.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 只要他们无论去哪里,都要达到卓越的水平。如果你告诉我你要去工业界,或者告诉我你要留在学术界,我不在意——因为你在这里的时候,
**Sally Kornbluth:** Except that wherever they're going to go, they have to be prepared to a level of excellence. So if you tell me you're going to industry and you tell me you're going to academia, I don't care because you while you're here,
**Brian Halligan:** 必须推进同样卓越水平的准备。
**Brian Halligan:** you have to advance the same level of excellence in your preparation. And so
**Sally Kornbluth:** 所以我认为我们不会根据某人具体的未来职业目标来定制教育。
**Sally Kornbluth:** I think that that it's not like we tailor our education to someone's specific future career goal. Okay.
**Brian Halligan:** 我们希望他们拥有那种知识基础和驾驭世界的能力,使他们能做任何想做的事。但这意味着你不能因为觉得某人未来的方向不需要全套教育机会就偷工减料。
你谈到了跟这个相关的 K.A.T.E. 计划,我很喜欢。你为什么要做这个?
你在乎周围城市里发生的事吗?那些产业对你重要吗?
**Brian Halligan:** We want them to have the kind of knowledge base and ability to navigate the world that will enable them to do anything they want to do. But that means you can't cut corners just because someone's going to do something that you don't think requires the full suite of educational opportunities.
And you talk about related to this, the Kate initiative you have, which I love. Why are you doing it? And
do you care what happens in the city around you? Does that industry matter to you?
**Sally Kornbluth:** 确实重要。首先,我们都看到了生物技术对周边地区的影响,
**Sally Kornbluth:** It really does. Okay. Um, first of all, we've all seen the impact of biotech on the surrounding area
**Brian Halligan:** 而且你也知道,很多 AI 的活动都跑到了西海岸——这让我很不爽。
**Brian Halligan:** and you know as well as I do that, you know, we've seen a lot of the AI action go to the West Coast driving me crazy.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 是的。所以,
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yeah. And so, look,
**Brian Halligan:** 首先,我希望我们的学生和教授能够尽快把他们伟大的发现带给世界。
**Brian Halligan:** I think first of all, I want our students and our faculty to be able to bring to the world as rapidly as possible their great discoveries. So, that's one thing.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 但我也确实希望留在这里的人能充实我们本地的生态系统。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Yeah. But I also do want to see the people who are here populate our local ecosystem.
**Brian Halligan:** 好。你确实在意这个。
**Brian Halligan:** Okay. You do care about that.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 确实在意。原因有几个。一是纯粹的经济原因,对这个区域来说很重要。另一个原因是 MIT 本身就是这个丰富生态系统的一部分——学生在来回流动,教授在来回流动。我希望 MIT 和现实世界之间有持续的对话,而距离的近便对此非常重要。比如我们正在考虑让学生做更多的 co-op 实习并在这些公司获得更多机会——事情必须在物理上靠近才能实现。所以有很多理由希望这些产业留在这里。Massachusetts 的活力一直在于教育经济和前沿科技经济,我不想看到它衰落。
**Sally Kornbluth:** I do. I do because first for a number of reasons. One is just for you know base economic reasons. I think it's important for the country for the region rather. But another region reason is that MIT is part of this rich ecosystem and you know students are going back and forth faculty are going back and forth. I want there to be a d a continuing dialogue between what's going on at a place like MIT and what's happening in the in the real world kind of thing. And so proximity is really important. We want to for instance we're thinking about whether our students should be doing more co-ops and have more opportunities in these companies. Things have to be proximal for you to be able to do that. So there's a lot of reasons to want that to happen. And the vitality of Massachusetts has always been about sort of the education economy and cutting edge tech economy. And I don't want to see that go down the drain.
**Brian Halligan:** 我也不想。Sally,我第一次接触到你是通过那场国会听证会。
**Brian Halligan:** I don't either. Sally, uh, my first exposure to you was a congressional hearing.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 哦,太好了。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Oh, great.
**Brian Halligan:** 我觉得我想跟她聊聊。
**Brian Halligan:** You said I want to talk to her.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 不是吧。作为校友——我当时的 NPS(净推荐值)对你来说很低。那是我第一印象。我想"她是谁?"我对她一无所知。然后看到你处理那场危机的方式、处理去年毕业典礼上抗议者的方式——
**Sally Kornbluth:** No. And as as an alum, I was like I was I was my NPS was low on you. Like that was my exposure. I was like, who is she? I didn't know anything about her. Like ah. And then how you handled that crisis. How you handled the hecklers at last year's graduation.
**Brian Halligan:** 对了,我差点忘了那件事。
**Brian Halligan:** All right. I almost forgot about that.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 你是一位杰出的领导者,我为自己跟 MIT 有关联感到非常自豪。非常感谢。
**Sally Kornbluth:** You're you're an outstanding leader and I'm really proud to be associate at MIT. Thank you so much.
**Brian Halligan:** 谢谢。
**Brian Halligan:** Thank you.
**Sally Kornbluth:** 非常感谢。
**Sally Kornbluth:** Thanks very much.
**Brian Halligan:** 嘿
**Brian Halligan:** Hey
**Sally Kornbluth:** 大家好,希望你们喜欢这期对 Sally 的采访。我觉得她是真正的宝藏人物。分享几个我的收获——有些是学到的新东西,有些是我当 CEO 时可能遗忘的。她出色地应对了几场大危机,其他几位播客嘉宾也是如此——比如 Robinhood 的 Vlad 也经历过几场大的。这些经历有很多共通之处,你们几乎所有人可能都会经历某种重大危机。我的几点收获:即使你内心像龙卷风一样翻滚、快要崩溃了,你也必须以某种神奇的方式对外展现冷静。这不容易,很反人性,但在危机中 CEO 必须做到这一点。如果你犯了错——就像她在国会面前犯了错——我以前的一位同事有句话:"当你解释的时候,你就输了。"你在那里不停地辩解,人们就会关掉耳朵。犯了错就承认,需要澄清就澄清,而且要快,不要拖。她还有一个做法我们在 HubSpot 也有——身边配一位优秀的撰稿人。你需要口头沟通,但大量工作是通过书面完成的。她的情况——HubSpot 也是如此——很多时候一篇写得非常好的内部或外部文章就是黄金。我们有几次关键时刻是靠写作能力渡过的。我自己上了很多写作课,我的联合创始人也擅长写作,我们非常依赖这一点。所以如果你不擅长写作,没关系,但你团队里必须有人写作能力出色。最后一点是她有一个非常好的董事会,而且董事会跟她同频。这个优势被低估了。你需要董事会站在你身后。我们还谈到了精英制和维持卓越。我的联合创始人和我从 MIT 毕业,我们试着把 MIT 的文化带进 HubSpot。我喜欢用这个例子来说明——我妈妈,每次我去看她,她朋友的孩子们好像都在找工作。所以每次我拿到三四份简历,当然她们把人推荐给 HubSpot。HubSpot 完全不在意是我推荐的——事实上可能还因为是我推荐的而扣分。所以大多数时候他们没得到工作。这让我妈很恼火,但我觉得对 HubSpot 有好处。关于这个话题的另一点——很多创始人问我"我应该面试到什么层级?到多大规模该停止亲自面试?"我的两条经验法则:你当然要面试直接向你汇报的人以及再下一层。另外,在快速扩张阶段,100 人以内你可以面试每一个人——不是第一轮面试,而是终面。我有几位 CEO 在 100 人左右还在做这个,日程上排着 10 分钟的面试。到那个规模就真的撑不住了。但我认为在 100 人之前你应该对每个人有否决权,因为你是在奠定基础。我们在 HubSpot 还有两个在精英制方面非常有效的做法。第一,她谈到他们并没有把卓越和精英制的理念完全写下来——那是文化层面的。我们有类似的东西——我们有五条价值观,面试后填写的表格上会列出这五条价值观,你给候选人在每条上打 1 到 4 分。这就把价值观内嵌到了系统里,我们后来还会回顾这些数据看我们在各项价值观上做得怎么样。关于面试——特别是高管面试——我唯一的建议是:你很容易——我们以前经常这样——去录用那个"弱点最少、所有人都觉得还行"的人,而不是录用那个"可能有些弱点、有些人持负面看法、但有些人觉得非常出色"的人。当我们开始录用"有棱角的人"(spiky people)——实际上是 HubSpot 现任 CEO Yamini 开始推动这件事的——这对我们非常有帮助。好,以上就是我的一些收获。希望你们喜欢这期节目。我觉得她太了不起了。我为自己是 MIT 毕业生感到骄傲。下期再见。
**Sally Kornbluth:** everybody, I hope you like that interview with Sally. I think she's a real gem. A couple of my takeaways, some things I learned or maybe forgot from when I was a CEO. She's handled a couple whopper crises really well and several of the other podcast guests have. Like Vlad from Robin Hood's been through a couple whoppers and some of this stuff rhymes and almost all of you will probably go through some major crisis. Um some of my takeaways are even though you're in an absolute tornado in size you're kind of boiling up, you're losing it somehow magically you have to show a calm exterior. It is not easy. It's unnatural. But in a crisis, the CEO needs to do that. If you have made a mistake, like she made a mistake in front of Congress. There's an expression old colleague of mine used to use. When you explain, you lose. You like you're spinning it, you're explaining it, you're explaining it, and people just tune out. Made a mistake, just admit it. Clarify your remarks if you need to clarify them. And do it quickly. Don't sit on it. Another hack she has that we had at HubSpot, have an excellent writer on board because you have to verbally communicate stuff, but so much is done in writing. And in her case, in HubSpot's case, many times a very very well-written post internally and externally is gold. And we had a couple of couple of moments where that really mattered. And I took a lot of writing classes. My co-founder was a good writer and we leaned on that heavily. So if you're not a great writer, it doesn't even have to be your conserson. somebody on your team should be an excellent writer. And the last piece is just she has a very good board and her board's on board with her. That's underrated. You want your board to be behind you. We talked about meritocracy and sustaining excellence. My co-founder and I and Huba graduated from MIT and we tried to keep sort of the culture of MIT into HubSpot. And the way I would like to describe this is my mother, my every time I visit my mother, uh all her friends kids seem like they're always looking for jobs. So, I get a stack of three or four resumes every time I visit her and of course they refer them back to HubSpot. HubSpot didn't care that I referred them. In fact, it might have even been a black mark that I referred them. And so, much more often than not, they didn't get the job. That really irritated my mother, but I think was good for HubSpot. Um, another thing about this I think she didn't talk about this but I think is like a lot of founders ask me like who should I be be interviewing and when at what scale should I stop interviewing? I'll give you my two rules of thumb. You should all obviously interview the people who are directly reporting to you in the circle in that next level out. Um, I also think like as you're scaling fast, you can interview everybody up to 100 employees. Not the first interview but the final interview. And a couple of my CEOs are doing that around 100 employees. It starts to really break down there like they have 10minute interviews on their calendar, but I think you should have veto rights up until about that point on everyone because you're kind of setting a foundation. Two other hacks that we had at HubSpot that really worked on the meritocracy side. Um, one is, you know, she talked about this, but like they didn't necessarily write down this idea of of sort of excellence in meritocracy. It was cultural. We had something similar. We had our five values and in the form you would fill out after you interviewed someone all five values would be on there and you'd scale you rank them on a scale of 1 to four. That kind of built the values into the system and we go back later and compare how are we doing on those values and then for every person we interview would score them. And my only advice on interviewing particularly execs is it's very tempting and we did this a lot to hire the person with the least amount of weaknesses that everyone liked as opposed to hiring the person who maybe has some weaknesses and some people were negative on but some people really thought were great. You know, we when we started hiring spiky people, in fact, Yamin, the current CEO of HubSpot, started doing this, it really paid off for us. Anyway, those are some of my takeaways. I hope you like the pod. I think she's incredible. I'm a proud uh graduate and uh I'll see you on the next pod.