**Lex Fridman:** 以下是与 Jensen Huang 的对话,他是 NVIDIA 的 CEO。NVIDIA 是人类文明史上最重要、最具影响力的公司之一。NVIDIA 是驱动 AI 革命的引擎,它的很多成功可以直接归功于 Jensen 作为领导者、工程师和创新者的强大意志力,以及他做出的许多精彩押注和决策。这是 Lex Fridman 播客。亲爱的朋友们,以下是 Jensen Huang。你将 NVIDIA 推进了 AI 的新纪元,从过去专注于芯片级设计,转向了现在的机架级设计。我觉得可以公平地说,NVIDIA 长期以来的制胜策略是打造最好的 GPU,你们现在仍然在做,但已经扩展到了对 GPU、CPU、内存、网络、存储、供电散热、软件、机架本身、你们发布的 pod,甚至整个数据中心的极致协同设计(extreme co-design)。所以让我们来聊聊极致协同设计。在协同设计一个拥有这么多复杂组件和设计变量的系统时,最难的部分是什么?
**Lex Fridman:** The following is a conversation with Jensen Huang, CEO of NVIDIA, one of the most important and influential companies in the history of human civilization. NVIDIA is the engine powering the AI revolution, and a lot of its success can be directly attributed to Jensen's sheer force of will and his many brilliant bets and decisions as a leader, engineer, and innovator. This is Lex Fridman Podcast. And now dear friends, here's Jensen Huang. You've propelled NVIDIA into a new era in AI, moving beyond its focus on chip scale design to now rack scale design. And I think it's fair to say that winning for NVIDIA for a long time used to be about building the best GPU possible, and you still do, but now you've expanded that to extreme co-design of GPU, CPU memory, networking, storage, power cooling, software, the rack itself, the pod that you've announced, and even the data center. So let's talk about extreme co-design. What is the hardest part of co-designing system with that many complex components and design variables?
**Jensen Huang:** 谢谢你提这个问题。首先,极致协同设计之所以必要,是因为问题已经不再能装进一台计算机、被一块 GPU 加速了。你要解决的问题是:你希望速度提升超过你增加的计算机数量。比如你加了一万台计算机,但你希望它快一百万倍。那一下子你就得把算法拆开、重构、把流水线分片、把数据分片、把模型分片。现在当你这样分布式地分配问题——不只是扩大问题规模,而是分布式地分配问题——那所有东西都会成为瓶颈。这就是阿姆达尔定律(Amdahl's Law)的问题:你能加速多少取决于它在总工作量中占多大比例。所以如果计算占问题的 50%,我把计算加速到无限快,比如快了一百万倍,总工作量也就只加速了两倍。现在突然间,你不仅要分布计算,还要想办法分片流水线。你还得解决网络问题,因为所有这些计算机都连接在一起。所以我们做的这种规模的分布式计算,CPU 是个问题,GPU 是个问题,网络是个问题,交换是个问题。把工作负载分布到所有这些计算机上是个问题。这就是一个极其复杂的计算机科学问题。所以我们得把每一项技术都用上。否则,我们只能线性扩展,或者基于摩尔定律的能力来扩展——而摩尔定律已经基本放慢了,因为 Dennard 缩放已经放慢了。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, thanks for that question. So first of all, the reason why extreme co-design is necessary is because the problem no longer fits inside one computer to be accelerated by one GPU. The problem that you're trying to solve is you would like to go faster than the number of computers that you add. So you added you know, 10,000 computers, but you would like it to go a million times faster. Then all of a sudden you have to take the algorithm, you have to break up the algorithm, you have to refactor it, you have to shard the pipeline, you have to shard the data, you have to shard the model. Now all of a sudden when you distribute the problem this way, not just scaling up the problem, but you're distributing the problem, then everything gets in the way. This is the Amdahl's Law problem where the amount of speed up you have for something depends on how much of the total workload it is. And so if computation represents 50% of the problem, and I sped up computation infinitely like a million times, you know, I only sped up the total workload by a factor of two. Now all of a sudden, not only do you have to distribute a computation, you have to, you know, shard the pipeline somehow. You also have to solve the networking problem because you've got all of these computers are all connected together. And so distributed computing at the scale that we do, the CPU is a problem, the GPU is a problem, the networking is a problem, the switching is a problem. And distributing the workload across all these computers is a problem. It's just a massively complex computer science problem. And so we just gotta bring every technology to bear. Otherwise, we scale up linearly or we scale up based on the capabilities of Moore's Law, which has largely slowed because Dennard scaling has slowed.
**Lex Fridman:** 我确信其中有很多取舍。而且这里涉及完全不同的学科。我相信你在每一个领域都有专家——高带宽内存、网络和 NVLink、网卡、光学和你们正在做的铜缆、供电、散热,所有这些。我是说,每个领域都有世界级专家。你怎么把他们凑到一个房间里去搞清楚——
**Lex Fridman:** I'm sure there's trade-offs there. Plus you have a complete disparate disciplines here. I'm sure you have specialists in each one of these high bandwidth memory, the network and the NVLink, the NICs, the optics and the copper that you're doing, the power delivery, the cooling, all of that. I mean, there's like world experts in each of those. How do you get 'em in a room together to figure out-
**Jensen Huang:** 所以我的直接下属才那么多。
**Jensen Huang:** That's why my staff is so large.
**Lex Fridman:** 这个流程是什么样的——能带我了解一下专家和通才之间的协作流程吗?比如当你知道有一堆东西必须塞进一个机架的时候,你怎么把所有东西设计在一起?那个流程是什么样的?
**Lex Fridman:** What's the process—can you take me through the process of the specialists and the generalists? Like how do you put together the rack when you know the s- the set of things you have to shove into a rack together? Like what does that process look like of designing it all together?
**Jensen Huang:** 好的。第一个问题是:什么是极致协同设计?你是在跨整个技术栈进行优化——从软件、架构、芯片到系统、系统软件、算法,再到应用。这是一个层面。第二件事就是我们刚才讨论的——超越了 CPU、GPU、网络芯片、scale-up 交换机和 scale-out 交换机。然后当然,你还得包括供电和散热这些东西,因为所有这些计算机都极其、极其耗电。它们做了很多工作,能效很高,但加在一起仍然消耗大量电力。所以这是第一个问题——它是什么。第二个问题是它为什么存在,我们刚才说了原因——你想分布工作负载,这样你能超越仅仅增加计算机数量带来的收益。然后第三个问题是怎么做到的,这就是这家公司的奇迹所在。你知道,当你设计一台计算机时,你得有操作系统。当你设计一家公司时,你首先应该想的是你希望这家公司产出什么。你知道,我看过很多公司的组织架构图,它们看起来都一样。汉堡包型组织架构图、软件公司组织架构图、汽车公司组织架构图。它们看起来都一样。这对我来说毫无道理。公司的目标是成为——公司本身就是一个机制、一套系统,用来产出产品。而那个产出就是我们想要创造的产品。公司的架构应该反映它所存在的环境。这几乎间接告诉你应该怎么组织。我的直接下属是 60 个人。你知道,我不跟他们做一对一,因为那不可能。你不可能有 60 个直接下属还能做一对一然后还——
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. There's the first question, which is: what is extreme co-design? You're, you, we're optimizing across the entire stack of software from architectures to chips, to systems, to system software, to the algorithms, to the applications. That's one layer. The second thing that you and I just talked about is goes beyond CPUs and GPUs and networking chips and scale up switches and scale out switches. And then of course, you gotta include power and cooling and all of that because, you know, all these computers are extremely, extremely power hungry. They do a lot of work and they're very energy efficient, but they in aggregate still consume a lot of power. And so that's one. The first question is, what is it? The second question is, why is it, and we just spoke about the reason, you know you want to distribute the workload so that you can exceed the benefit of just increasing the number of computers. And then the third question is, how is it, how do you do it? And that's the, that's kind of the miracle of this company. You know, when you're designing a computer, you have to have operating system of computers. When you're designing a company, you should first think about what is it that you want the company to produce. You know, I see a lot of companies organization charts, and they all look the same. Hamburger organization charts, soft organization charts, and car company organization charts. They all look the same. And it doesn't make any sense to me. You know, the goal of a company is to be the company is to be the machinery, the mechanism, the system that produces the output. And that output is the product that we like to create. It is also designed, the architecture of the company should reflect the environment by which it exists. It almost indirectly says what you should do with the organization. My direct staff is 60 people. You know, I don't have one-on-ones with 'em because it's impossible. You can't have, you can't have 60 people on your staff if you're, you know, gonna get work done and-
**Lex Fridman:** 所以你仍然有 60 个直接汇报。跨越——
**Lex Fridman:** So you still have 60 reports. You still have across-
**Jensen Huang:** 更多,是的。
**Jensen Huang:** More, yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 更多。而且大多数人至少有一只脚踩在工程领域。
**Lex Fridman:** More. And most stars at least have a foot in engineering.
**Jensen Huang:** 几乎所有人。有内存专家,有 CPU 专家,有光学专家。全部——
**Jensen Huang:** Almost all of them. There's experts in memory, there's experts in CPUs, there's experts in optical. All, all—
**Lex Fridman:** 这太不可思议了。
**Lex Fridman:** That's incredible.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,GPU 和——架构、算法、设计、嗯——
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, GPUs and— Architecture, algorithms, design, um—
**Lex Fridman:** 所以你持续关注整个技术栈,而且你不得不进行关于整个技术栈设计的——那种非常深入的讨论?
**Lex Fridman:** So, you constantly have an eye on the entire stack, and you're having to, like, intense discussions about the designer of the entire stack?
**Jensen Huang:** 而且任何对话都不只是一个人的事。所以我不做一对一。我们提出一个问题,然后所有人一起攻克它。因为我们在做极致协同设计。实际上,整个公司一直都在做极致协同设计。
**Jensen Huang:** And no conversation is ever one person. That's why I don't do one-on-ones. We present a problem and all of us attack it. You know, because we're doing extreme co-design. And literally, the company is doing extreme co-design all the time.
**Lex Fridman:** 所以即使你在讨论某个特定组件,比如散热、网络,所有人都在旁听?
**Lex Fridman:** So, even if you're talking about a particular component, like cooling, networking, everybody's listening in?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, exactly.
**Lex Fridman:** 然后他们可以说,"嗯,这对供电分配不行。这对——"
**Lex Fridman:** And they can contribute, "Well, this doesn't work for the power distribution. This doesn't-"
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Exactly.
**Lex Fridman:** "……这对内存不行。这对这个不行。"
**Lex Fridman:** "... This doesn't work for the memory. This doesn't work for this."
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。谁想走神就走神。你知道我在说什么吧?之所以这样做,是因为在我下属团队里的人,他们知道什么时候该注意听。假如有什么东西他们本应该贡献意见但没说,"我会点名叫他们出来。"你知道吗?"嘿,来吧,加入讨论。"
**Jensen Huang:** Exactly. And whoever wants to tune out, tune out. You know what I'm saying? And the reason for that is because the people who are on the staff, they know when to pay attention. There's supposed... You know, it's something they could have contributed to, they didn't contribute to, "I'm going to call them out." You know? And so, "Hey, come on, let's get in here."
**Lex Fridman:** 所以正如你提到的,NVIDIA 是一家适应环境的公司。那么在什么时候你可以说,环境发生了变化,公司开始悄悄地适应——从最初做游戏 GPU,到可能早期深度学习革命,到现在我们要开始把自己看作一个 AI 工厂?NVIDIA 做什么?它生产 AI,那就建一个制造 AI 的工厂。
**Lex Fridman:** So, as you mentioned, NVIDIA is this company that's adapting to the environment. So, at which point can you say, did the environment change and began adapting sort of secretly- ... in the early days from GPU for gaming, maybe the early deep learning revolution to we're now going to start thinking of it as an AI factory? What does NVIDIA do? It produces AI, let's build a factory that makes AI.
**Jensen Huang:** 我可以——我可以系统地推理一下。我们最初是一家加速器公司。但加速器的问题在于应用领域太窄。它有一个好处就是对特定工作优化得非常好。你知道,任何专家都有这个优势。但高度专精的问题当然是你的市场覆盖面更窄,但那还好。问题是,市场规模也决定了你的研发能力。而你的研发能力最终决定了你在计算领域能产生多大的影响力。所以当我们最初作为加速器起步的时候——非常专一的加速器——我们一直都知道那只是第一步。我们必须找到一种方式成为加速计算。但问题是,当你变成一家计算公司时,它太通用了,会损害你的专精性。我把两个实际上存在根本张力的词连在了一起。我们的计算能力越强,作为专家就越弱。越专精,做整体计算的能力就越有限。所以……我故意把这两个词放在一起,因为公司必须找到那条非常狭窄的路径,一步一步一步地扩大我们的计算范围,但不能放弃我们最重要的专精优势。好,那我们走出加速的第一步是发明了可编程像素着色器(programmable pixel shader)。这是迈向可编程性的第一步。这是我们迈向计算世界的第一段旅程。我们做的第二件事是在着色器里加入了 FP32。那个 FP32 这一步——符合 IEEE 标准的 FP32——是向计算方向迈出的巨大一步。这就是为什么所有在流处理器和其他类型的数据流处理器上工作的人发现了我们。他们说,"嘿,突然之间,我们也许可以用这个计算能力超强的 GPU,而且它现在符合 IEEE 标准了。"我可以把之前在 CPU 上写的软件拿过来,看看能不能在 GPU 上用。这引导我们在 FP32 之上加了 C 语言——我们称之为 Cg。Cg 这条路最终引向了 CUDA。CUDA,一步一步一步……嗯,把 CUDA 放到 GeForce 上,那是一个非常非常艰难的战略决策,因为它消耗了公司大量的利润,而我们当时负担不起。但我们还是做了,因为我们想成为一家计算公司。一家计算公司必须有一个计算架构。一个计算架构必须在我们制造的所有芯片上兼容。
**Jensen Huang:** Uh, I could, I c- you, you could- I could reason through what just systematically. We started out as a, as an accelerator company. But the problem with accelerators is that the application domain's too narrow. It has the benefit of being incredibly optimized for the job. You know, any specialist has that benefit. The problem with intense specialization is that, of course, your market reach is narrower, but that's, that's even fine. The problem is, the market size also dictates your R&D capacity. And your R&D capacity ultimately dictates the influence and impact that you can possibly have in computing. And so, when we first started out as an accelerator, very specific accelerator, we always knew that had- that was going to be our first step. We had to find a way to become accelerated computing. But the problem is, when you become a computing company, it's too general purpose and it takes away from your specialization. The tur- I connected two words that are actually have fundamental tension. The better computing company we become, the worse we became as a specialist. The more of a specialist, the less capacity we have to do overall computing. And so, that... And I connected those two words together on purpose, that the company has to find that really narrow path, step by step by step, to expand our aperture of computing, but not give up on the most important specialization that we had. Okay, so the first step that we took beyond acceleration was, we invented a programmable pixel shader. So, that was the first step towards programmability. You know, it was our first journey towards moving into the world of computing. The second thing that we did was we created we put FP32 into our shaders. That FP32 step, IEEE-compatible FP32, was a huge step in the direction of computing. It was the reason why all of the people who were working on, on stream processors and, you know, other types of data flow processors discovered us. And they said, "Hey, all of a sudden, you know, we might be able to use this GPU that's incredibly computationally intensive, and it's now, you know, compliant with IEEE." I can take my software that I was writing, you know, previously on CPUs, and I can, you know, see about, you know, using the GPU for that. And which led us to create, put C on top of FP32, what's called, we call Cg. The Cg path took us to eventually CUDA. CUDA, step by step by step We... Well, putting CUDA on GeForce, that was a strategic decision that was very, very hard to do, because it cost the company enormous amounts of our profits, and we couldn't afford it at the time. But we did it anyways because we wanted to be a computing company. A computing company has a computing architecture. A computing architecture has to be compatible across all of the chips that we build.
**Lex Fridman:** 你能带我回顾一下那个决策吗?把 CUDA 放在 GeForce 上,当时负担不起?你能解释一下那个决策吗?为什么大胆地选择去做?能解释一下那个决策吗?
**Lex Fridman:** Can you take me through that decision? So, putting CUDA on GeForce, could not afford to do? Can you explain that decision? Why, why boldly choose to do that anyway? Can you explain that decision?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,很好的问题。那是第一个……我会说那是第一个接近生存威胁级别的战略决策。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, excellent. That was, that was the first... I would say that that was the first strategic decision that is as close to an existential threat.
**Lex Fridman:** 给不了解背景的人说一下,剧透一下,它后来被证明是一家公司有史以来做出的最精彩的决策之一。所以 CUDA 成为了 AI 基础设施世界中计算的一个不可思议的基石。所以——
**Lex Fridman:** For people who don't know, it turned out to be, spoiler alert, one of the most incredibly brilliant decisions ever made by a company. So, CUDA turned out to be an incredible foundation for computation in this AI infrastructure world. So-
**Jensen Huang:** 谢谢。
**Jensen Huang:** Thank you
**Lex Fridman:** ……只是提供一下背景。它被证明是个好决策。
**Lex Fridman:** ... just setting the context. It turned out to be a good decision.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,它被证明是个好决策。我想……事情是这样的。我们发明了 CUDA 这个东西,它扩大了我们的加速器能够加速的应用范围。问题是,我们怎么吸引开发者来用 CUDA?因为一个计算平台完全取决于开发者。而开发者来到一个计算平台不只是因为它能做某些有意思的事。他们来是因为装机量(install base)大。因为开发者和其他人一样,想开发能触及很多人的软件。所以装机量实际上是一个架构中最重要的部分。架构可以招来巨大的批评。比如说,没有任何架构比 x86 招来过更多的批评……作为一个不太优雅的架构,但它仍然是当今的定义性架构。这告诉你一件事:那么多 RISC 架构,设计得很美,由世界上最聪明的一些计算机科学家精心打造,基本上都失败了。所以我给了你两个例子——一个优雅,另一个几乎谈不上美感——但 x86 活了下来,原因是——
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, it turned out to have been a good decision. I think the... So, here's the way it went. So, we invented this thing called CUDA, and It expanded the aperture of applications that, that we can accelerate with our accelerator. The question is, how do we, how do we attract developers to CUDA? Because a computing platform is all about developers. And developers don't come to a computing platform just because, you know, it could perform something interesting. They come to a computing platform because the install base is large. Because a developer, like anybody else, wants to develop software that reaches a lot of people. So, the install base is, in fact, the single most important part of an architecture. The architecture could attract enormous amounts of criticism. For example, no architecture has ever attracted more criticism than the x86.... you know, as a less than, less than elegant architecture, but yet it is the defining architecture of today. It gives you an example that in fact so many RISC architectures which were beautifully architected, incredibly well-designed by some of the brightest computer scientists in the world, largely failed. And so I've given you two examples where one is, you know, one is elegant, the other one's barely aesthetic, and so yet x86 survived and the reason for-
**Lex Fridman:** 装机量就是一切。
**Lex Fridman:** Install base is everything.
**Jensen Huang:** 装机量定义了一个架构。其他一切都是次要的,好吧?所以当时有其他架构。CUDA 出来的时候,OpenCL 也在那里。有好几个竞争架构。但我们做出的那个好决策是我们说,"嘿,看,最终还是装机量的问题,我们把一个新的计算架构推向世界的最佳方式是什么?"到那时,GeForce 已经成功了。我们每年已经在卖几百万块 GeForce GPU,我们说,"我们应该把 CUDA 放到 GeForce 上,放进每一台 PC,不管用户用不用,以此作为培育装机量的起点。"同时,我们去吸引开发者,我们跑到大学里去写书、开课,把 CUDA 放得到处都是。最终人们发现了……当时 PC 是主要的计算载体。没有云计算,我们可以把超级计算机放到每个在校研究人员、每个科学家、每个工程学院、每个学生手中,最终会有了不起的事情发生。然而问题是,CUDA 使得那块 GPU——一个消费产品——的成本增加得如此巨大,它完全吞噬了公司所有的毛利润。所以当时公司的市值大概是……我不知道,80 亿?大概六七十亿美元那样?推出 CUDA 之后,我意识到它会增加这么多成本,但这是我们相信的事情。我们的市值跌到了大约 15 亿美元。我们在那个位置待了一阵子,然后慢慢爬了回来,但我们一直让 GeForce 承载着 CUDA。我总说 NVIDIA 是 GeForce 建造的房子,因为是 GeForce 把 CUDA 带给了所有人。研究人员、科学家,他们在 GeForce 上发现了 CUDA,因为他们很多人本来就是游戏玩家。他们中很多人自己组装 PC。在大学实验室里,很多人自己用 PC 组件搭建集群。所以,大致就是这样起步的。
**Jensen Huang:** Install base defines an architecture. Not... Everything else is secondary, okay? And so there were other architectures at the time. CUDA came out, OpenCL was here. There were... You know, there's several other competing architectures. But the thing that... The decision that we made that was good was we said, "Hey, look, ultimately it's about, Install base and what is the best way we could get a new computing architecture into the world?" By that timeframe, GeForce had become successful. We were already selling millions and millions of GeForce GPUs a year, and we said, "You know, we ought to put CUDA on GeForce and put it into every single PC whether customers use it or not, and use it as a starting point of cultivating our install base." Meanwhile, we'll go and attract developers, and we went to universities and wrote books and taught classes and put CUDA everywhere. And eventually people discover... And at the time, the PC was the primary computing vehicle. There was no cloud, and we could put a supercomputer in the hands of every researcher in school, every scientist, you know, every engineering school, every... or every student in school, and eventually something amazing will happen. Well, the problem was CUDA increased our cost of that GPU, which is a consumer product, so tremendously, it completely consumed all of the company's gross profit dollars. And so at the time, the company was probably, you know, worth, I don't know, at the time, eight... Was it like $8 billion or something? Like six, $7 billion or something like that. After we launched CUDA, I recognized that it was going to add so much cost, but it was something we believed in. You know, our market cap went down to like one and a half billion dollars. And so we were down, we were down there for a while and we clawed our way way back slowly, but we carried CUDA on GeForce. I always say that NVIDIA is the house that GeForce built, because it was GeForce that took CUDA out to everybody. Researchers, scientists, they discovered CUDA on GeForce because they were all, you know... Many of 'em were gamers. Many of them built their own PCs anyways. In a university lab, many of them built clusters themselves, you know, using PC components. And, and so that, you know, that's kind of how we got going.
**Lex Fridman:** 然后那就成了深度学习革命的平台和基石。
**Lex Fridman:** And then that became the platform and the foundation for the deep learning revolution.
**Jensen Huang:** 那也是另一个伟大的、伟大的观察。是的。
**Jensen Huang:** That was also another great, great observation. Yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 那个生死存亡的时刻,你还记得……那些会议是什么样的?那些讨论是什么样的,作为一家公司,赌上一切?
**Lex Fridman:** That existential moment, do you remember... Like, what were those meetings like? What were those discussions like, deciding as a company, risking everything?
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯,我必须向董事会说清楚我们要做什么,管理团队知道我们的毛利率会被碾压。所以你可以想象这样一个世界:GeForce 承担了 CUDA 的负担,但没有任何游戏玩家会感激它,也没有任何游戏玩家会为它付钱。他们只愿意付一定的价格,你的成本多少跟他们没关系。所以……我们把成本增加了 50%,而且它吞噬了——我们当时是一家 35% 毛利率的公司,所以这是……这是一个相当艰难的决策。但你可以想象有一天这会进入工作站、进入超级计算机,在那些市场里也许我们能获取更多利润。所以你可以通过推理来说服自己能负担得起,但它仍然花了……花了十年。
**Jensen Huang:** Well I had to make it clear to the board what we're trying to do, and the management team knew our gross margins were gonna get crushed. So you could imagine a world where GeForce would carry the burden of CUDA and none of the gamers would appreciate it and none of the gamers would pay for it. You know, they only pay certain price and it doesn't matter what your cost is. And so the... You know, we, we increased our cost by 50% and that con- consumed... And we were a 35% gross margin company, and so it, it was a... It was quite a difficult decision to make. But you could imagine that someday this would go into workstations and it would go into supercomputers and, and in those segments, maybe we can capture more margin. so you could, you could reason your way into being able to afford this, But it still took... It took a decade.
**Lex Fridman:** 但那更多是和董事会的对话、说服他们,但你在心理上——作为 NVIDIA 持续做出预测未来的大胆赌注,在某种程度上,尤其是现在,定义未来。所以我几乎是在寻找一种智慧,关于你是如何作为一家公司做出那些跳跃式决策的。
**Lex Fridman:** But that, but that's more of, like, conversation with the board convincing them, but you psychologically- ... as NVIDIA's continued to make bold bets that predict the future, and in part, especially now, define the future. So I'm almost looking for wisdom about how you're able to make those decisions, to make leaps- ... like that as a company.
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯,首先我受到大量好奇心的驱动。到了某个时刻,有一个推理系统会让我非常确信——这个结果一定会发生。这件事一定会发生。所以我在心里相信了它,当你在心里相信了它的时候,你知道那是怎样的。你在脑中构想了一个未来,那个未来如此有说服力,不可能不发生。中间会有很多痛苦,但你必须相信你所相信的。
**Jensen Huang:** Well, first of all I'm informed by a lot of curiosity. At some point, there's a reasoning system that, that convinces me, so clearly this outcome will happen. That this will happen. And so I believe it in my mind, and when I believe it in my mind, you know, you know how it is. You manifest a future and that future is so convincing, there's no way it won't happen. There's a lot of suffering in between, but you've gotta believe what you believe.
**Lex Fridman:** 所以你设想未来——然后你本质上是从工程角度,让它变成现实?
**Lex Fridman:** So you envision the future- ... and you essentially, from a sort of engineering perspective, manifest it?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。你推理如何到达那里。你推理为什么它必须存在。你知道,我推理……我们所有人都在这里推理。管理团队会推理。我花大量时间和所有人一起推理。接下来——下一部分可能是一种技能——在领导力中经常发生的事情是,领导者保持沉默,或者他们了解到某些东西,然后搞一个宣言,新的一年来了,到明年年底我们会有一个全新的计划。大裁员、大规模组织变革、新使命宣言……全新 logo,那种东西。我们从来没有,我从来不那样做事。当我了解到某件事情并且它开始影响我的思考方式时,我会非常清楚地告诉我身边的每个人,"这个东西很有意思。这个会产生影响。这个会影响到那个。"我一步一步地推理。很多时候我已经下了决心,但我会抓住每一个可能的机会——外部信息、新见解、新发现、新的工程突破、新的里程碑——我会利用这些机会来塑造其他人的信念体系。我每天都在这么做。我对董事会这样做,对管理团队这样做,对员工这样做。我在塑造他们的信念体系,这样当有一天我说,"嘿,我们收购 Mellanox 吧",对所有人来说就完全是理所当然的事情。在我说"嘿,伙计们,我们 all in 深度学习"的那天,让我告诉你为什么——我已经在公司内部不同组织中铺好了砖。每个组织和每个人,很多人可能已经听过所有内容了。公司大多数人当然只听到了一部分。在我宣布的那天,每个人对很多部分都已经 buy in 了。在很多方面,我喜欢宣布这些事情,我想象着员工们在说,"Jensen,你怎么花了这么久?"事实上我已经塑造他们的信念体系有一段时间了,所以这就是领导力。有时候看起来你是从后面领导,但你一直在塑造他们的想法,到了我宣布的那一天,100% buy in。但这才是你想要的。你想带着每个人一起走。否则,你宣布什么深度学习的事情,所有人都说,"你在说什么?"你宣布让我们 all in 某件事,你的管理团队、董事会、员工、客户都说,"这从哪儿来的?这疯了吧。"所以 GTC 的效果,如果你回顾过去,看那些主题演讲,我也在塑造我行业合作伙伴的信念体系,并用它来塑造我自己员工的信念体系。所以到我宣布某件事的时候——比如我们刚刚宣布了 Grok(此处指 Grace Blackwell 相关产品)。我已经谈了两年半的垫脚石。你回去看看就会发现,"天哪,他们已经谈了两年半了。"所以我一步一步地铺设基础,到宣布的时候,每个人都在说,"你怎么花了这么久?"
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. And you, you reason about how to get there. You reason about why it, it must exist. And, you know, I reason... We all reason it here. The management team would reason about it. All the people that I... We spend a lot of time reasoning about it. The thing, the thing that... The next part of it is probably a skill thing, which is, you know, oftentimes in leadership the leadership stays quiet or they learn about something, and then they do some manifesto, and it's a brand-new year, and somehow at the end of the year, next year, we're gonna have a brand-new plan. Big huge layoff this way, big huge organization change this way, new mission statement... brand new logos you know, that kind of stuff. Um, we've just never, I never do things that way. When I learn about something and it's starting to influence how I think, I'll make it very clear to everybody near me that, you know, this, this is interesting. This is going to make a difference. This is going to impact that. And I reason about things step by step by step. Oftentimes, I've already made up my mind, but I'll take every possible opportunity, external information, new insights, new discoveries, New engineering, you know, revelations, new milestones developed, I'll take those opportunities and I'll use it to shape everybody else's belief system. And I'm doing that literally every single day. I'm doing that with my board, I'm doing that with my management team, I'm doing that with my employees. I'm trying to shape their belief systems such that when I come the day I say, "Hey, let's buy Mellanox," it's completely obvious to everybody that we absolutely should. On the day that I said, "Hey guys, let's go all in on deep learning," and let me tell you why. I've already been laying down the bricks to different organizations inside the company. Every organization and everybody, many of the people might have heard everything. Most of the company hears, of course, pieces of it. And on the day that I announce it, everybody's kind of bought in to many pieces of it. And in a lot of ways, I like to announce these things, and I imagine, that the employees are kind of saying, "You know, Jensen, what took you so long?" And in fact, I've been shaping their belief system for some time, and therefore leadership. Sometimes it looks like you're leading from behind, but you've been shaping their, you know, to the point where on the day that I declared it, 100% buy-in. But that's what you want. You want to bring everybody along. You know, otherwise, we announce something about deep learning and everybody goes, "What are you talking about?" You know, you announce something about let's go all in on this thing, and your management team, your board, your employees, your customers, they're kind of like, "Where's this coming from? You know, this is insane." And so, so GTC effect, if you go back in time, you look at the keynotes, I'm also shaping the belief system of my partners in the industry and I'm using that to shape, you know, the belief system of my own employees. And so by the time that I announce something, like for example, we just announced Grok. We've been late... I've been talking about the stepping stones for two and a half years. You just go back and go, "Oh my gosh, they've been talking about it for two and a half years." And so I've been laying the foundation step by step by step, so when the time comes you announce it, everybody's saying, "You know, what took you so long?"
**Lex Fridman:** 但不只是在公司内部。你在塑造更广泛的全球创新格局。把那些想法放出去,你确实在让现实成真。
**Lex Fridman:** But it's not just inside the company. You're shaping the landscape, the broader global landscape of innovation. Like, putting those ideas out there, you really are manifesting reality.
**Jensen Huang:** 我们不造计算机。我们实际上也不建云。我们不……结果是,我们是一家计算平台公司。所以没有人能直接从我们这里买到东西。这是件奇怪的事。我们做垂直设计、垂直整合来设计和优化,但然后我们在每一层把整个平台开放出来,让其他公司整合到他们的产品、服务、云、超级计算机、OEM 电脑中。所以令人惊奇的是,如果不先说服他们,我做不成我在做的事。GTC 大部分就是在构想一个未来——到我们的产品准备好的时候,他们说,"你怎么花了这么久?"
**Jensen Huang:** We don't build computers. We actually don't build clouds. We don't... As it turns out, we're a computing platform company. And so nobody can buy anything from us. That's the weird thing. You know, we vertically design, vertically integrate to design and optimize, but then we open up the entire platform at every single layer to be integrated into other companies' products and services and clouds and supercomputers and OEM computers and so the amazing thing is, I can't do what I do without having convinced them first. And so most of GTC is about manifesting a future that by the time that we... My product is ready, they're going, "What took you so long?"
**Lex Fridman:** 是的。你长期以来一直相信的一件事就是缩放定律(scaling laws),广义上来说。那你现在还相信缩放定律吗?
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah. So one of the things you've been a believer for a long time is scaling laws, broadly defined. So are you still a believer in the scaling laws?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,是的。是的,我们现在有更多的缩放定律了。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have more scaling laws now.
**Lex Fridman:** 我觉得你列出了四个——预训练(pre-training)、后训练(post-training)、推理时(test time)和智能体(agentic)缩放。当你思考未来——远期和近期——你最担心的、让你夜不能寐的障碍是什么?为了继续扩展,你必须克服什么?
**Lex Fridman:** So I think you've outlined four of them with pre-training, post-training, test time, and agentic scaling. What do you think, when you think about the future, deep future and the near-term future, what are the blockers that you're most concerned about th at keep you up at night that you have to overcome in order to keep scaling?
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯,我们可以回顾一下过去人们认为是障碍的东西。所以在一开始,我们是第一个……预训练缩放定律。人们——也有道理——认为我们拥有的高质量数据量将限制我们能达到的智能水平。那个缩放定律是一个非常重要的定律。模型越大,对应地用更多数据训练就能得到更好的——更聪明的 AI。这就是预训练。然后 Ilya Sutskever,Ilya 说了"我们的数据用完了"之类的话。"预训练结束了"之类的话。行业恐慌了,觉得这就是 AI 的终点。当然,当然那显然不对。我们会继续扩大训练数据量。很多数据可能会是合成的,这也让人困惑。人们没有意识到的是,他们有点忘记了——我们用来彼此教育、彼此告知的大部分数据其实就是合成的。它是合成的,因为它不是从自然界直接出来的。你创造了它。我消费它。我修改它、增强它、重新生成它,别人再消费它。所以我们现在已经达到了这样一个水平:AI 能够获取真实数据、增强它……强化它、合成生成海量数据。而后训练的这部分继续扩展。我们用的人类生成的数据量将越来越小、越来越小。我们用于训练模型的数据总量将继续扩大,直到训练不再受数据限制……数据现在受限于算力。原因在于大部分数据是合成的。然后下一个阶段是推理时(test time),我还记得有人告诉我,"推理?哦,那很简单。预训练,那才难。"这些人说的是巨大的系统。推理一定很简单。所以推理芯片会是小小的芯片,不像 NVIDIA 的芯片。哦,那些会很复杂很贵,我们可以造……将来推理会是最大的市场,而且会很简单,我们会把它商品化。每个人都可以自己造芯片。那对我来说一直是不合逻辑的,因为推理就是思考,而我认为思考很难。思考比阅读难得多。预训练就是记忆和泛化,找模式和关系。你在读啊读。而思考是推理、解决问题、面对未探索的经历、新的经历,把它分解成……把它拆解成可解决的部分,然后通过第一性原理推理,或者通过以前的经验、先前的例子。或者就是探索和搜索,尝试不同的方法。这整个推理时缩放、推理的过程,真正是关于思考的。是关于推理、规划、搜索的。那它怎么可能是轻量计算的呢?我们在这一点上完全正确。推理时缩放是极其计算密集的。然后问题是,好的,现在我们在推理阶段,在推理时缩放,接下来是什么?嗯,显然,我们现在已经创建了一个智能体式的"人"(agentic person),这个智能体有一个大语言模型,我们已经开发好了。但在推理时,这个智能体系统会去做研究、查数据库、使用工具,其中最重要的一件事就是分裂出、生成一大批子智能体。这意味着我们现在在创建大型团队。通过雇更多员工来扩展 NVIDIA 比扩展我自己要容易得多。所以下一个缩放定律就是智能体缩放定律。有点像乘法式地增加 AI。我们可以想生成多少智能体就生成多少。所以我有四个缩放定律。当我们使用智能体系统时,它们会创造更多的数据、更多的经验。有些我们会说,"哇,这个太好了。我们应该记住它。"那个数据集就会回到预训练阶段。我们记忆并泛化它。然后我们把它精炼、微调回后训练。然后我们用推理时进一步增强,智能体系统把它推向行业。所以这个循环会一直持续下去。归根结底,智能将依赖一个东西来扩展,那就是算力。
**Jensen Huang:** Well, we can go back and reflect on what people thought were blockers. So in the beginning, we were the first... The pre-training scaling law. You know, people thought well rightfully so, that the amount of data that we have, high-quality data that we have will limit the intelligence that we achieve. And that scaling law was an important, very important scaling law. The larger the model, the correspondingly more data results in a better... With a results in a smarter AI. And so that was pre-training. And Ilya Sutskever, Ilya said, "We're out of data," or something like that. "Pre-training is over," or something like that. The industry panicked, you know, that this is the end of AI. And of course, of course that, that's obviously not true. We're gonna keep on scaling the amount of data that we have to, to train with. A lot of that data is probably gonna be synthetic, and that also confused people, you know? And what people don't realize is they've kind of forgotten that most of the data that, that we are training that we teach each other with, inform each other with, is synthetic. You know, I... It's synthetic because it didn't come out of nature. You created it. I'm consuming it. I modify it, augment it, I regenerate it, somebody else consumes it. And so, so we've now reached a level where AI is able to take ground truth, augment it...... Enhance it, synthetically generate an enormous amount of data. And that part of post-training continues to scale, and so the amount of data that we could use that is human generated will be smaller, and smaller, and smaller. The amount of data that we use to train model, is going to continue to scale to the point where we're no longer limited... Training is no longer limited by... Data is now limited by compute. And the reason for that is most of the data is synthetic. Then the next phase is test time, and I still remember people telling me that, "Inference? Oh, yeah, that's easy. Pre-training, that's hard." These are giant systems that people are talking about. Inference must be easy. And so inference chips are gonna be little tiny chips, and ... you know, they're not, they're not like NVIDIA's chips. Oh, those are gonna be complicated and expensive, and, you know, we could make... And this is- in the future, inference is gonna be the biggest market, and it's gonna be easy, and we're gonna commoditize it. You know, everybody can build their own chips. And, and that was always illogical to me because inference is thinking, and I think thinking is hard. Thinking is way harder than reading. You know, pre-training is just memorization and generalization, you know, and looking for patterns in relationships. You're reading and reading, versus thinking, reasoning, solving problems, taking unexplored experiences, new experiences, and breaking it down into... Decomposing it into, you know, solvable pieces that we then go off, either through first principle reasoning, or, you know, through previous examples, prior experiences. You know, or just uh, exploration and search and, you know, trying different things. And that whole process of, of test time scaling, Inference, is really about thinking. And it's about reasoning, it's about planning, it's about search, it's about... And so how could that possibly be compute light? And we were absolutely right about that. You know, so test time scaling is intensely compute intensive. Then the question is, okay, now we're at inference and we're at test time scaling, what's beyond that? Well, obviously, we have now created, you know, one agentic person, and that one agentic person has a large language model that we've now now, you know, developed. But during test time, that agentic system goes off and does research and bangs on databases, and it goes out and, you know, uses tools, and one of the most important things it does is spins off and spawns off a whole bunch of sub-agents. Which means we're now creating large teams. It's so much easier to scale NVIDIA by hiring more employees than it is to scale myself. And so the next scaling law is the agentic scaling law. It's kind of like multiplying AI. Multiplying AI, we could spin off agents as fast as you want to spin off agents. And so, you know, I... You know, I have four scaling laws. And as we use the agentic systems, they're gonna create a lot more data, they're gonna create a lot of experiences. Some of it we're gonna say, "Wow, this is really good. We ought to memorize this." That data set then comes all the way back to pre-training. We memorize and generalize it. We then refine it and fine-tune it back into post-training. Then we enhance it even more with test time, you know, and the agents, agentic systems, you know, put it out to the industry. And so this loop, this cycle, is gonna go on and on and on. It kinda comes down to basically intelligence is gonna scale by one thing, and that's compute.
**Lex Fridman:** 但这里面有一个棘手的问题,你必须预判和预测——其中一些组件需要不同种类的硬件才能真正做到最优。所以你必须预判 AI 创新将走向何方。比如混合——
**Lex Fridman:** But there's a tricky thing there that you have to anticipate and predict, which is some of these components, it requires different kind of hardware to really do it optimally. So you have to anticipate where the AI innovation's going to lead. For example, a mixture of-
**Jensen Huang:** 完美。
**Jensen Huang:** Perfect
**Lex Fridman:** ——专家模型(mixture of experts),带有稀疏性。
**Lex Fridman:** ... experts with sparsity.
**Jensen Huang:** 完美。
**Jensen Huang:** Perfect.
**Lex Fridman:** 硬件不能在一周的时间内转向。你必须预判它将是什么样子。这——
**Lex Fridman:** With hardware, you can't just pivot on a week's notice. You have to anticipate what that's going to look like. It has some-
**Jensen Huang:** 太好了。
**Jensen Huang:** So good
**Lex Fridman:** ——太可怕了,而且太难做到了,对吧?
**Lex Fridman:** ... that's so scary and difficult to do, right?
**Jensen Huang:** 比如说,这些 AI 模型架构大约每六个月就发明一次。对吧?而系统架构和硬件架构大约每三年更新一次。所以你需要预判两三年后可能会发生什么。有几种方法可以做到。首先,我们可以自己做内部研究,这就是我们有基础研究和应用研究的原因之一。我们自己做模型。所以我们有亲身的实践经验。这就是我说的协同设计的一部分。我们也是世界上唯一一家与世界上几乎每一家 AI 公司都合作的 AI 公司。所以在我们能力范围内,我们尽量了解人们正在经历什么挑战。
**Jensen Huang:** For example, These AI model architectures are being invented about once every six months. Right? And system architectures and hardware architectures kind of every three years. And so you need to anticipate what likely is going to happen, you know, two, three years from now. And there's a couple ways that you could do that. First of all, we could do research internally ourselves, and that's one of the reasons why we have basic research, we have applied research. We create our own models. And so we have hands-on life experience right here. This is part of the co-design that I'm talking about. We're also the only AI company in the world that works with literally every AI company in the world. And so to the extent that we can, we try to get a sense of what are the challenges that people are experiencing.
**Lex Fridman:** 所以你在倾听整个行业、AI 实验室的低语。
**Lex Fridman:** So you're listening to the whispers across the industry, the AI labs.
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。你得向每个人学习和倾听。然后最后一部分是要有一个灵活的架构,能够随风而动地适应。CUDA 的好处之一是,一方面它是一个不可思议的加速器。另一方面,它真的很灵活。所以在专精性——否则我们无法加速 CPU——和通用性之间的那种平衡——让我们能够适应不断变化的算法——这真的非常非常重要。这就是为什么 CUDA 一方面如此坚韧,同时我们又在不断增强它。我们现在到了 CUDA 13.2,我们在快速演进架构以跟上现代算法。比如当混合专家模型(MoE)出来的时候,这就是为什么我们用 NVLink 72 而不是 NVLink 8。我们现在可以把一整个四万亿、十万亿参数的模型放在一个计算域里,就像在一块 GPU 上运行一样。人们可能没注意到——我说过——但如果你看 Grace Blackwell 机架的架构,它完全专注于做一件事:处理 LLM。突然间,一年后你看到 Vera Rubin 机架。它有存储加速器。它有一个叫 Vera 的了不起的新 CPU。它有 Vera Rubin 和 NVLink 72 来运行 LLM。它还有一个叫 Rock 的新增机架。所以整个机架系统与之前的完全不同,加入了所有这些新组件。原因是上一代是为运行 MoE 大语言模型推理而设计的。而这一代是为了运行智能体——智能体要使用工具——
**Jensen Huang:** That's right. You got to listen and learn from everybody. And have a ... And then the last part is to have an architecture that's flexible, that can adapt and move with the wind. And one of the benefits of, of CUDA is that it's, you know, on the one hand, an incredible accelerator. On the other hand, it's really flexible. And so that balance, incredible balance between specialization, otherwise we can't accelerate the CPU, versus generalization, so that we can adapt with changing algorithms, that's really, really important. That's the reason why CUDA has been so resilient on the one hand, and yet we continue to enhance it. We're at CUDA 13.2, and so we're evolving the architecture so fast that we can stay with, you know, with the modern algorithms. For example... When mixtures of experts came out, That's the reason why we had NVLink 72 instead of NVLink eight. We could now take an entire four trillion, 10 trillion parameter model and put it in one computing domain as if it's running on one GPU. Um, people probably didn't notice, I said it, but if you look at the architecture of the Grace Blackwell racks, it was completely focused on doing one thing, processing the LLM. All of a sudden, one year later, you're looking at a Vera Rubin rack. It has storage accelerators. It has this incredible new CPU called Vera. It has Vera Rubin and NVLink 72 to run the LLMs. It also has this new additional rack called Rock. And so this entire rack system is completely different than the previous one, and it's got all these new components in it. And the reason for that is because the last one was designed to run MoE large language models, inference. And this one is to run agents and agents bang on tools, and-
**Lex Fridman:** 显然,系统的设计肯定是在 Claude Code、Codex、OpenClaw 之前完成的。所以你在预判未来,本质上。那这来自什么?来自那些低语?来自对前沿研究的理解——
**Lex Fridman:** Obviously, the design of the system had to have been done before Claude Code, Codex, OpenClaw. So you were anticipating the future, essentially. And that comes from what? From the whispers, from understanding what all the state-
**Jensen Huang:** 不。
**Jensen Huang:** No
**Lex Fridman:** ——吗?
**Lex Fridman:** ... of the art is about?
**Jensen Huang:** 不,比那更简单。你只需要推理。首先,你只需要推理。不管发生什么,在某个时刻,为了让那个大语言模型成为一个数字工人……我们就用这个比喻。假设我们想让 LLM 成为一个数字工人。它必须做什么?它必须访问真实数据。那就是我们的文件系统。它必须能够做研究。它不知道所有事情。而且……我不想等到这个 AI 对过去、现在和未来的所有事情都变得万事通了才让它有用。所以我不如让它去做研究。显然,如果它想帮我,它得用我的工具。很多人会说,"AI 会完全摧毁软件。我们不再需要软件了。我们甚至不再需要工具了。"那太荒谬了。我们来做一个思想实验。你可以坐在那里,享受一杯威士忌,然后思考所有这些事情,一切就会变得完全显而易见。比如,如果我要创造在未来十年内我们能想象到的最了不起的智能体。比如说它是一个人形机器人。如果这个人形机器人被创造出来了,它更可能是走进我的家,使用我现有的工具来完成它需要做的工作呢?还是它的手在某个时候变成一个 10 磅的锤子,在另一个时候变成手术刀,为了烧水从手指里发出微波?你知道,还是说它更可能就是去用微波炉?第一次走到微波炉前,它可能不知道怎么用。但没关系。它连着互联网。它读了这个微波炉的说明书,读完了,马上就成为专家。然后它就用了。所以我觉得……我刚才描述的,实际上几乎就是 OpenClaw 的所有特性。它会使用工具,它会访问文件,它能做研究。它有 I/O 子系统。当你这样推理完之后,你就会说,"天哪,这对未来的计算影响太深远了。"原因是,我认为我们刚刚重新发明了计算机。然后你说,"好吧,我们是什么时候推理出这些的?我们什么时候推理出 OpenClaw 的?"如果你看我在 GTC 上用的 OpenClaw 示意图,你会发现两年前。字面意义上,两年前在 GTC,我就在谈论与今天的 OpenClaw 完全一致的智能体系统。当然,很多东西需要汇聚到一起。首先,我们需要 Claude、GPT 以及所有这些模型达到一定的能力水平。所以他们的创新、突破和持续进步非常重要。然后当然,还得有人创建一个足够健壮、足够完整、我们都能用起来的开源项目。我认为 OpenClaw 对智能体系统所做的,就像 ChatGPT 对生成式系统所做的那样。我觉得这是一件非常大的事情。
**Jensen Huang:** No, it's easier than that. You just reason about it. First of all, you just reason. no matter, no matter what happens, at some point in order for that large language model to be a digital worker... Let's just, let's just use that metaphor. Let's say that we want the LLM to be a digital worker. What does that have to do? It has to access ground truth. That's our file system. It has to be able to do research. It doesn't know everything. We don't have... And I don't wanna wait until this AI becomes, you know, universally smart about everything, past, present, and future before I make it useful. And so therefore, I might as well let it go do research. It's obviously, if it wants to help me, it's gotta use my tools. You know, a lot of people would say, "You know AI is gonna completely destroy software. We don't need software anymore. We don't even need tools anymore." That's ridiculous. Let's use the... Let's use a thought experiment. And you could just sit there, enjoy a glass of whiskey, and, and think about all these things, and it would become completely obvious. Like, if I were to create the most amazing- the most amazing agent that we can imagine in the next 10 years. Let's say it'd be a humanoid robot. If that humanoid robot were to be created, is it more likely that the humanoid robot comes into my house and uses the tools that I have to do the work that it needs to do? Or does this hand turns into a 10-pound hammer in one instance, turns into a scalpel in another instance, and in order to boil water, it beams, you know, microwaves out of its fingers? You know, or is it more likely just to use a microwave, you know? And the first time it goes up to the microwave, it probably doesn't know how to use it. But that's okay. It's connected to the internet. It reads the manual of this microwave, reads it, instantly becomes an expert. And so it uses it. And so I think the... I just described, in fact, almost all of the properties of OpenClaw. You know, that it's gonna use tools, that it's gonna access files, it's gonna be able to do research. It has I/O subsystem. And when you're done reasoning through it, reasoning about it in that way, Then you say, "Oh, my gosh, the impact to the future of computing is deeply profound." And the reason for that is, I think we've just reinvented the computer. And then now you say, "Okay, when did we reason about that? When did we reason about OpenClaw?" If you take the OpenClaw schematic that I used at GTC, you'll find it two years ago. Literally, two years ago at GTC, I was talking about agentic systems that exactly reflect OpenClaw today. And, of course, the confluence of many things had to happen. First of all, we needed Claude and GPT and, you know, all of these models to reach a level of capability. So their innovation and their breakthroughs and their continued advances was really important. And then, of course, somebody had to create an open source, you know project that was sufficiently robust, you know, and sufficiently complete and that we can all put to work. And I think OpenClaw did for, did for agentic systems what ChatGPT did for generative systems. And I just think it's a very big deal.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,这是一个很特别的时刻。我不确定它为什么捕获了全世界那么多注意力,但它确实做到了——比 Claude Code 和 Codex 等等更多。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, it's a really special moment. I'm not exactly sure why it captured so much of the world's attention, but it did, more than Claude Code and Codex and so on.
**Jensen Huang:** 因为消费者可以触及它。
**Jensen Huang:** Because consumers could reach it.
**Lex Fridman:** 当然,是的。但这里面很多也是氛围的事情。Peter,我和他做过一期播客,他是个很棒的人。所以一部分也是代表这件事的人。
**Lex Fridman:** Sure, yeah. But there's also so much of this is vibes. And Peter, I had a podcast with him, he's a wonderful human being. So part of it is also the humans that represent the thing.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, no doubt.
**Lex Fridman:** 一部分是 meme 和——因为我们都在试图搞明白这一切。真正严肃而复杂的安全问题是,当你有这么强大的技术时,你怎么把数据交给它们让它们做有用的事?但这也有可怕的方面。我们作为一个文明、作为个人和作为文明整体,正在摸索如何找到那个正确的平衡。
**Lex Fridman:** Part of it is memes and the— 'Cause we're all trying to figure it out. There's really serious and complicated security concerns about when you have such powerful technology, how do you hand over your data so they can do useful stuff? But then there's scary things associated with that. And we, as a civilization, as individual people and as a civilization, figuring out how to find that right balance.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,我们马上就跳进去了,派了一批安全专家过去。我们做了一个叫 OpenShell 的东西。它已经整合进了 OpenClaw。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, we jumped on it right away and we sent a bunch of security experts this way. And we did this thing called OpenShell. It's already been integrated into, into OpenClaw.
**Lex Fridman:** 而且 NVIDIA 推出了 NemoClaw。
**Lex Fridman:** And NVIDIA put forward NemoClaw.
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yep, exactly.
**Lex Fridman:** 安装超简单。确保安全。
**Lex Fridman:** They install super easy. It makes sure that it's secure.
**Jensen Huang:** 我们给你三个权限中的两个。智能体系统可以访问敏感信息,可以执行代码,可以对外通信。如果每次只给你这三个能力中的两个而不是全部三个,我们就能保持安全。在这两个能力中,我们还基于企业授予你的权限给你访问控制。然后我们把它连接到企业已有的策略引擎上。所以我们会尽最大努力帮助 OpenClaw 变成一个更好的 claw。
**Jensen Huang:** We give you two out of three rights. Agentic systems can access sensitive information, it can execute code, and it can communicate externally. We could keep things safe if we gave you two out of those three capabilities at any time, but not all three. And out of those two out of three capabilities, we also give you access control based on whatever rights that you're given by enterprise. And then we connect it to a policy engine that all these enterprises already have. And so we're going to try to do our best to help OpenClaw become a better claw.
**Lex Fridman:** 你很有说服力地解释了我们有一个长长的障碍历史——我们以为会是障碍的东西,但我们克服了它们。但现在展望未来,你认为障碍可能是什么?现在很明显智能体将会无处不在。显然我们会需要算力。那么什么会成为扩展的障碍?
**Lex Fridman:** So you eloquently explained how we have a long history of blockers that we thought were going to be blockers, and we overcame them. But now looking into the future, what do you think might be the blockers now that it's clear that agents will be everywhere? So obviously we're going to need compute. So what is going to be the blocker for that scaling?
**Jensen Huang:** 能源是一个关切,但不是唯一的关切。但这就是为什么我们在极致协同设计上推进得这么猛——我们每年都在把每瓦每秒 token 数提升好几个数量级。在过去 10 年里,摩尔定律本来会把计算推进大约 100 倍。我们在过去 10 年里把计算扩展和提升了 100 万倍。我们会通过极致协同设计继续这样做。能效、每瓦性能,完全影响着一家公司的收入。影响着一个工厂的收入。我们会把它推到极限,尽可能快地把 token 成本降下来。我们的计算机价格在上涨,但我们的 token 生成效率提升得更快,所以 token 成本在下降。每年下降一个数量级。
**Jensen Huang:** Power is a concern, but it's not the only concern. But that's the reason why we're pushing so hard on extreme co-design, so that we can improve the tokens per second per watt orders of magnitude every single year. And so in the last 10 years, Moore's Law would have progressed computing about 100 times in the last 10 years. We progressed and scaled up computing by a million times in the last 10 years. And so we're gonna keep on doing that through extreme co-design. So energy efficiency, perf per watt, completely affects the revenues of a company. It affects the revenues of a factory. And we're just going to push that to the limit so that we can keep on driving token costs down as fast as we can. You know, the our computer price is going up, but our token generation effectiveness is going up so much faster that token cost is coming down. It's just coming down an order of magnitude every year.
**Lex Fridman:** 所以能源,这个有意思。应对能源瓶颈的方式是通过每瓦每秒 token 数来让它越来越高效。当然,还有一个问题是我们如何获得更多的能源。
**Lex Fridman:** So power, that's an interesting one. So the way to try to get around the power blocker is to try to, with the tokens per second per watt, try to make it more and more efficient. Of course, there's the question of how do we get more power.
**Jensen Huang:** 我们也应该获得更多的能源。
**Jensen Huang:** We should also get more power.
**Lex Fridman:** 那个问题很复杂。你谈过小型模块化核反应堆。有各种各样关于能源的想法。供应链中的瓶颈让你夜不能寐吗?比如 ASML 的 EUV 光刻机、TSMC 的先进封装如 CoWoS、SK Hynix 的高带宽内存?
**Lex Fridman:** That's a really complicated one. You've talked about small modular nuclear power plants. There's all kinds of ideas for energy. How much does it keep you up at night? The bottlenecks in the supply chain of AI, like ASML with EUV lithography machines, TSMC with advanced packaging like CoWoS, and SK Hynix with the high bandwidth memory?
**Jensen Huang:** 一直都在想,一直都在推进。历史上没有任何公司在我们这个增长规模的基础上还在加速增长。这太不可思议了。人们甚至很难理解这一点。在整个 AI 计算世界里,我们在增加市场份额。所以上游和下游的供应链对我们来说非常重要。我花大量时间告诉我合作的所有 CEO 们,有什么动态会驱动增长继续甚至加速。这就是为什么在我右手边站着几乎整个 IT 行业上游和几乎整个基础设施行业下游的 CEO 们。有好几百位 CEO。我不认为有任何主题演讲让好几百位 CEO 到场过。一部分原因是我在告诉他们我们当前的业务状况。我在告诉他们近期的增长驱动因素和正在发生的事情。我还在描述我们下一步要去哪里,这样他们可以利用所有这些信息和动态来决定如何投资。所以我这样通知他们,就像通知我自己的员工一样。然后当然,我还会出差去拜访他们,确保,"嘿,听着,我想让你知道这个季度、明年、后年,这些事情会发生。"如果你看看 DRAM 行业的 CEO 们。过去世界第一大 DRAM 是数据中心 CPU 用的 DDR 内存。大约三年前,我说服了几位 CEO——虽然当时 HBM 内存用得还很少,几乎只有超级计算机用——说这将成为数据中心的主流内存。一开始这听起来很荒谬,但有几位 CEO 相信了我,决定投资建造 HBM 内存。还有一种放进数据中心很奇怪的内存——我们在手机上用的低功耗内存。我们想让他们把它适配到数据中心的超级计算机上。他们说,"手机内存给超级计算机?"我给他们解释了为什么。看看这两种内存——LPDDR5、HBM4。出货量难以置信。三种内存都创下了历史纪录——这些可都是 45 年的公司。所以这是我工作的一部分——告知、塑造、激励。
**Jensen Huang:** All the time, and we're working on it all the time. No company in history has ever grown at a scale that we're growing while accelerating that growth. It's incredible. And it's hard for people to even understand this. In the overall world of AI computing, we're increasing share. And so supply chain, upstream and downstream, are really important to us. I spend a lot of time informing all the CEOs that I work with, what are the dynamics that's going to cause, The growth to continue or even accelerate? It's part of the reasons why to the entire right-hand side of me were CEOs of practically the entire IT industry upstream and practically the entire infrastructure industry downstream. And they were all... There were several hundred CEOs. And I don't think there's ever been keynotes where several hundred CEOs show up. And part of it is, I'm telling them about our business condition now. I'm telling them about the growth drivers in the very near future and what's happening. And I'm also describing where are we going to go next so that they could use all of this information and all of the dynamics that are here to inform how they want to invest. And so I inform them that way like I inform my own employees. And then of course, then I make trips out to them and make sure that, "Hey, listen, I want you to know this quarter, this coming year, this next year, these things are going to happen." And if you look at the CEOs of the DRAM industry, The number one DRAM in the world was DDR memory for CPUs in data centers. About three years ago, I was able to convince several of the CEOs that even though at the time HBM memory was used quite scarcely, you know, and, and barely by supercomputers that this was going to be a mainstream memory for data centers in the future. And at first it sounded ridiculous, but several of the CEOs believed me and decided to invest in building HBM memories. Another memory was rather odd to put into a data center, is the low power memories that we use for cell phones. And we wanted them to adapt them for supercomputers in the data center. And they go, "Cell phone memory for supercomputers?" And I explained to them why. Well, look at these two memories, LPDDR5, HBM4. The volumes are so incredible. All three of them had record years in history, and these are, these are 45-year companies. And so, you know, I... That's part of my job, is to inform and shape, inspire, you know.
**Lex Fridman:** 所以你不仅仅是在构想未来,可能激励 NVIDIA 的不同工程师,你还在构想未来的供应链。你在和 TSMC、ASML 对话。
**Lex Fridman:** So you're not just manifesting the future and maybe inspiring NVIDIA, the different engineers of the company, you're, you're manifesting the supply chain of the future. So you're having conversations with TSMC, with ASML.
**Jensen Huang:** 上游、下游。
**Jensen Huang:** Upstream, downstream.
**Lex Fridman:** 上游、下游。这就是关键。
**Lex Fridman:** Upstream, downstream. So that's the thing.
**Jensen Huang:** GEV、Caterpillar。是的,那是我们的下游。是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** GEV, Caterpillar. Yeah, that's downstream from us. Yeah, yeah, there you go.
**Lex Fridman:** 整个生态。我是说,但这……整个半导体行业里有那么多不可思议的复杂工程,供应链如此精密、组件如此之多,但它不知怎么就是运转了。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, the whole thing. I mean, but that's so... There's so much incredibly difficult engineering that happens in the entire semiconductor industry, and it just feels scary how intricate the supply chain is, how many components there are, but it works somehow.
**Jensen Huang:** 没错,深层的科学。深层的工程、不可思议的制造——很多制造已经是机器人在做了。但我们有大约两百家供应商为我们 130 万个组件的机架提供技术。每个机架是 130 万——150 万个组件。Vera Rubin 机架有 200 家供应商。
**Jensen Huang:** Exactly, the deep science. The deep engineering, the incredible manufacturing, and so much of the manufacturing is already robotics, but we have a couple of hundred suppliers that contribute the technology that goes into our 1.3 million component rack. Each rack is 1.3, one and a half million components. There are 200 suppliers across the Vera Rubin rack.
**Lex Fridman:** 有趣的是你没有把它列为让你夜不能寐的障碍。
**Lex Fridman:** So it's interesting that you don't list that as the thing that keeps you up at night in the list of blockers.
**Jensen Huang:** 但我正在做所有必要的事情来——
**Jensen Huang:** But I'm doing, I'm doing all the things necessary to-
**Lex Fridman:** 好吧。
**Lex Fridman:** Okay
**Jensen Huang:** ——是的,你看?我能安心睡觉是因为我把这些都勾掉了。我说,好的,让我推理一下。什么对我们重要?因为我们把系统架构从你记得的最初的 DGX-I 改变到了 NVLink-72 机架级计算——这意味着什么?对软件意味着什么?对工程意味着什么?对我们设计和测试的方式意味着什么?对供应链意味着什么?其中一件事是,我们把超级计算机的集成从数据中心搬到了供应链中的超级计算机制造。如果你在做这个,你还必须认识到——如果你要建的数据中心的总规模,假设你想要 50 吉瓦的超级计算机同时运行,而制造 50 吉瓦的超级计算机需要一周,那么每周供应链都需要一吉瓦的电力。所以我们需要供应链增加电力来制造和测试超级计算机,然后才能发货。NVLink-72 实际上是在供应链中建造超级计算机,然后每个机架两三吨地运出去。以前是零件分别送来,我们在数据中心里组装。但现在不可能了,因为 NVLink-72 太密集了。这就是一个例子。我得飞到供应链那里,去见我的合作伙伴说,"嘿,猜猜怎么着?这是我们以前怎么造 DGX 的。我们要改成这样造。这会好得多,因为我们在推理方面需要它们。"推理市场要来了。拐点要来了。会是一个大市场。所以我先跟他们解释正在发生什么、为什么会发生,然后请求他们每家做几十亿美元的资本投资。因为他们信任我,我也非常尊重他们,我给他们充分的机会质疑我,花时间给他们解释,我画图,从第一性原理来推理。等我说完,他们就知道该怎么做了。
**Jensen Huang:** ... yeah, see? I can go to sleep because I checked it off. I said, okay, you know, I go, I yeah, I can go to sleep and I go, well, let's see, what re- let's reason about this. What's important for us? Um, because okay, let's reason about this. Because we changed the system architecture from the original DGX-I that you remembered to NVLink-72 rack scale computing- ... what's gonna... What does that, what does that mean? What does that mean to software? What does that mean to engineering? What does that mean to how we design and test? How, and what does that mean to the supply chain? Well, one of the things that it meant was we moved supercomputer, supercomputer integration at the data center into supercomputer manufacturing in the supply chain. If you're doing that, you also have to recognize you're gonna move one... And if, if you're, if you're, you know, total footprint of whatever data center you're gonna build, let's say you would like to have, you know, 50 gigawatts of supercomputers that are running simultaneously, and it takes one week to manufacture that 50 gigawatts of supercomputers, then each week in the supply chain, the supercomputers are gonna need a gigawatt of power. And so, so we're gonna need the supply chain to increase the amount of power it has to build, test, to build and test the supercomputers in the supply chain before I ship it. Well, NVLink-72 literally builds supercomputers in the supply chain and ships 'em two, three tons at a time per rack. It used to be—they used to come in parts and we used to assemble 'em inside the data center. But that's impossible now because NVLink-72 is so dense. And so that's an example. And I would have to go and to, you know, I've... Fly into the supply chain, go meet my partners saying, "Hey," I said, "guess what? So here's what I'm going to do with... This is the way we used to build our DGXs. We're gonna build them this way. This is gonna be so much better because we're going to need 'em for inference." The market for inference is, you know, coming. The inflection point for inference is coming. It's gonna be a big market. And so I first explain to them what's going on, why it's gonna happen, and then I ask 'em to make several billion dollars of capital investments each. And because they, you know, they trust me and I'm very respectful of 'em, and I give 'em every opportunity to question me and I spend time to explain things to people and I reason about it. I draw on pictures and I reason about it in first principles. And by the time I'm done with them, they know what to do.
**Lex Fridman:** 所以很大程度上是关于关系和建立对未来的共同愿景。但你会担心某些瓶颈吗?最大的供应链瓶颈是什么?你担心 ASML 的 EUV 设备吗?你担心 TSMC 的 CoWoS 封装的扩展速度吗?就像你说的,你不仅增长极快,还在加速增长。感觉供应链上的每个人,那些都是瓶颈,都得扩大规模。你在和他们对话说如何更快地扩大规模吗?你担心吗?
**Lex Fridman:** So it's a lot of it is about relationships and building a shared view of the future. Uh, but do you worry about certain bottlenecks? I mean, what are the biggest bottlenecks in the supply chain? Are you, are you worried about ASML's EUV tooling? Are you, are you worried about the packaging, CoWoS packaging of TSMC, about how fast it could scale? Like you said, you're not only growing incredibly fast, you're accelerating your growth. So it feels like everybody in the supply chain, and those are certainly bottlenecks, would have to scale up. Are you having conversations with them, like, how can you scale up faster? Do you worry about it?
**Jensen Huang:** 不担心。
**Jensen Huang:** No.
**Lex Fridman:** 好吧。
**Lex Fridman:** Okay.
**Jensen Huang:** 因为我告诉了他们我需要什么。他们理解了我的需求。他们告诉了我他们会怎么做,我相信他们会做到。
**Jensen Huang:** Because, because I told 'em what I needed. They understood what I need. They told me what they're gonna go do, and I believe them what they're going to do.
**Lex Fridman:** 有意思。很高兴听到这些。那也许我们可以在能源问题上多停留一下。你对如何解决能源问题有什么期望?
**Lex Fridman:** Interesting. That's great to hear. So maybe if we can just linger on the power for a little bit. What are your hopes for how to solve the energy problem?
**Jensen Huang:** Lex,我有一个领域非常希望我们能谈谈,把这个信息传播出去。我们的电网是为最坏情况加一些余量而设计的。好吧,99% 的时间我们远远达不到最坏情况,因为最坏情况只是冬天的几天、夏天的几天,还有极端天气。大多数时候我们远远达不到最坏情况,可能大约运行在峰值的 60%。所以 99% 的时间,我们的电网有多余的电力,它们就闲置在那里——但它们必须闲置着以防万一,因为到时候医院需要供电,基础设施需要供电,机场需要运转,等等。所以我的问题是——我们能不能去帮他们理解,并创建合同协议、设计计算机架构系统和数据中心,使得当他们需要为社会基础设施提供最大电力时,数据中心的用电就减少?但那本来就是极少发生的情况。在那段时间里,我们要么有备用发电机覆盖那一小部分,要么让计算机把工作负载转移到其他地方,要么让计算机跑慢一点。我们可以降低性能、减少功耗,当有人问问题的时候提供一个稍微长一点的延迟响应。所以我认为,用这种方式使用计算机、建造数据中心——不要求 100% 的正常运行时间——这些合同要求非常非常严格,给电网带来了很大压力……现在他们得从最大值往上增加。我只是想用他们多余的。它就在那里闲着。
**Jensen Huang:** One of the areas, Lex, that I'm that I would love, I would love us to talk about and just get the message out, you know our power grid is designed for the worst case condition with some margin. Well, 99% of the time we're nowhere near the worst case condition because the worst case condition is a few days in the winter, a few days in the summer, and extreme weather. Most of the time we're nowhere near the worst case condition and we're probably running around, call it 60% of peak. And so 99% of the time, our power grid has excess power, and they're just sitting idle, but they have to be there sitting idle because just in case, when the time comes, hospitals have to be powered and, you know, infrastructure has to be powered and airports have to run and so on and so forth. And so the question that I have is whether we could go and, Help them understand and create contractual agreements and design computer architecture systems, data centers, such that when they need, The maximum power for infrastructure in society, that the data centers would get less. But that's in a very rare instance anyways. And during that time, we either have a backup generator for that little part of it, or we just have our computers shift the workload somewhere else, or we have the computers just run slower. You know, we could degrade our performance, reduce our power consumption and provide for a, you know, slightly longer latency response, you know, when somebody asks for, you know, asks for an answer. And so I think that that way of using computers, of building data centers, instead of expecting 100% uptime-... and these contracts that are really, really quite rigorous, it's putting a lot of pressure on the grid to be able to... Now, they're gonna have to increase from their maximum. I just wanna use their excess. It's just sitting there.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,这个话题讨论得不够多。那什么在阻碍这件事?是监管吗?是官僚主义吗?
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, that's not talked about enough. So what's stopping there? Is it regulation? Is it bureaucracy?
**Jensen Huang:** 我认为这是一个三方问题。首先从终端客户开始。终端客户要求数据中心永远不能不可用,好吧?终端客户期望完美。为了提供这种完美,你需要备用发电机和电网供电商的组合来实现完美。所以每个人都得有六个 9 的可用性。我觉得首先应该让每个人理解,当客户提出这些要求时,你的数据中心运营团队里有人是与 CEO 脱节的。我打赌 CEO 不知道这些事。我要去跟所有 CEO 谈。CEO 们可能根本没注意到正在签的合同,所以每个人都想签最好的合同,当然。然后下到云服务商,合同……两个合同谈判人员……你能想象他们谈判这些多年合同的样子。双方都想要最好的合同。结果,CSP 就得去找公用事业公司,期望六个 9。所以我认为第一件事就是确保所有客户、CEO 和客户意识到他们在要求什么。第二件事是我们得建造能够优雅降级的数据中心。如果电力公司、电网告诉我们,"听着,我们需要你降到大约 80%",我们会说,"完全没问题。"我们就把工作负载调配一下。我们确保数据永远不丢失,但我们可以降低计算速率、使用更少能源。服务质量稍微下降一点。关键工作负载我马上转移到别处,所以不会有问题——无论哪个数据中心仍然保持 100% 运行时间。
**Jensen Huang:** I think it's a three-way problem. It starts with the end customer. The end customer puts requirements on the data centers that they can never not be available, okay? So that the end customer expects perfection. Now, in order to deliver that perfection, you need a combination of backup generators and your grid power supplier to deliver on perfection. And so everybody's gotta have six nines. Well, I think first of all, right now, we ought to have everybody understand that when the customer asks for these things, you have somebody in your data center operations team disconnected from the CEO. I bet the CEO doesn't know this. I'm gonna talk to all the CEOs. The CEOs are probably not paying any attention to the contracts that are being signed, and so everybody wants to sign the best contract, of course. And they go down to cloud service providers, and the contract, the... The two contract negotiators that are... You, I could just see them now. You know, negotiating these multi-year contracts. Both sides want, you know, the best contract. As a result, the CSPs then have to go down to the utilities, and they expect the nine, the six nines. And so I think the first thing is just make sure that all of the customers, the CEOs and the customers realize what they're asking for. Now, the second thing is we have to build data centers that gracefully degrade. And so if the power, if the utility, if the grid tells us, "Listen, we're gonna have to back you down to about 80%," we're gonna say, "That's no problem at all." We're just gonna move our workload around. We're gonna make sure that data's never lost, but we can reduce the computing rate and use less energy. The quality of service degrades a little bit. For the critical workloads, I shift that somewhere else right away so I don't have that problem, and so, you know, whoever, whichever data center still has 100% uptime, and so...
**Lex Fridman:** 这个工程问题有多难——在数据中心里做智能的、动态的电力分配?
**Lex Fridman:** How difficult of an engineering problem is that, that smart, dynamic allocation of power in a data center?
**Jensen Huang:** 只要你能定义规格,你就能工程化它。说得很好。只要它遵守物理定律和第一性原理,我觉得我们没问题。
**Jensen Huang:** As soon as you could specify, you could engineer it. U- beautifully put. So long as it obeys the laws of physics on first principles, I think we're good.
**Lex Fridman:** 你说的第三件事是什么?嗯……
**Lex Fridman:** What was the third thing you were mentioning? Um...
**Jensen Huang:** 第二件是数据中心。第三件是我们需要公用事业公司也认识到这是一个机会——不要说"看,我需要五年才能增加电网容量",而是如果你愿意接受这种保障级别的电力,我下个月就能给你提供,就这个价格。如果公用事业公司也提供更多层级的电力交付承诺,我觉得每个人都会找到解决办法。是的,但现在电网有太多浪费了。我们应该去解决它。
**Jensen Huang:** So the second thing is the data centers. And the third thing is we need the utilities to also recognize that this is an opportunity- ... and instead of saying, "Look it's gonna take me five years to increase my grid capability," uh, if you, if you have, if you're willing to take power of this level of guarantee, I can make them available for you next month and at this price. And so if utilities also offered more segments of power delivery promises, then I think everybody will figure out what to do with it. Yeah, but there's just way too much waste in the grid right now. We should go after it.
**Lex Fridman:** 你高度赞扬了 Elon 和 xAI 在 Memphis 建造 Colossus 超级计算机的成就,可能是创纪录的——仅用四个月就完成了。现在已经到了 20 万块 GPU,还在快速增长。关于他的方法,有什么你能说的、对广泛的数据中心建造者有启示意义的东西吗?他的工程方法、他对整个建设管理的方法等等?
**Lex Fridman:** Uh, you've highly lauded Elon and xAI's accomplishment in Memphis, in building Colossus supercomputer, probably in record time in just four months. It's now at 200,000 GPUs and growing very quickly. Is there something that you could speak to the understand about his approach that's instructive to, broadly to all the data center creators that's that enabled that kind of accomplishment? His approach to engineering, his approach to the whole management of construction, everything?
**Jensen Huang:** 首先,Elon 深入涉足很多不同的话题。同时他也是一个非常好的系统思考者。所以他能在多个学科之间思考,而且他显然会推动事情、质疑一切——第一,这有必要吗?第二,必须用这种方式做吗?然后,必须花这么长时间吗?所以他有能力质疑一切,到所有东西都精简到必要的最少量、你再也拿不掉任何东西的程度。但产品的必要功能仍然保留着。所以他是你能想象的最极简主义者,而且他在系统层面做到这一点。我也很欣赏的一点是他亲自出现在行动现场。他就直接去那里。如果有问题,他就直接去那里然后说,"给我看看问题。"当你把所有这些结合在一起,你就克服了很多过去的那种"我们一直就是这样做的"。"我在等他们。"每个人都有很多借口。然后最后一件事是,当你亲自表现出这么强烈的紧迫感,它会让其他所有人也产生紧迫感。每个供应商都有很多客户、很多项目在进行,而他让自己的事情成为其他所有人的最高优先级。他通过身体力行来做到这一点。
**Jensen Huang:** First of all, Elon is deep in so many different topics. Um, Yet he's also a really good systems thinker. And so he's able to think through multiple disciplines, and, and he obviously pushes things, questions everything, where they're, number one, is it necessary? Number two, does it have to be done this way? And then numbers, you know, does it have, does it have to take this long? And, and so, so he, he has, he has the a- he has the ability to question everything, To the point where everything is down to its minimal amount that's necessary, you can't take anything else out. And yet the, the necessary capabilities of the product remains, you know? And so he's, he is as minimalist as you could possibly imagine, and he does it at a system scale. I think... I also love the fact that he is he is represented. He is present at the point of action. You know, he'll just go there. If there's a problem, he'll just go there and then, "Show me the problem." You know, when you do all of this in combination, you overcome a lot of previous, "This is just the way we do it." "Um, you know, I'm waiting for them. Uh," You know, I mean, it's just, everybody has a lot of excuses. And so, and then the last thing is when you act personally with so much urgency it causes everybody else to act with urgency, you know? And every supplier has a lot of customers going on. Every supplier has a lot of projects going on, and he made it his... He makes it his business that he's the top priority of everybody else's, you know, projects. And so he does that by demonstrating it.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,我参加过很多那样的会议。看着真的很有趣,因为真的没有足够多的人会问这样的问题,"好吧,这能不能快很多?怎么做?为什么必须花这么长时间?"
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, I've been in a bunch of those meetings. It's just, it's fun to watch, 'cause really, not enough people ask the question like, "Okay, so, can this be done a lot faster, and how? Why does it have to take this long?"
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, right.
**Lex Fridman:** 然后……那就变成了一个工程问题。是的,我觉得当你获得了实际的真实情况……我记得有一次和他在一起,他真的在逐步走完整个把线缆插入机架的过程。他和一个在地面做这项工作的工程师一起,他就是在试图理解这个流程是什么样的,怎么才能减少出错。就是从每一个组装数据中心的任务中建立起那种直觉——你马上就能在细节层面和宏观系统层面感知到哪里有低效,然后让它越来越越来越高效。加上他还有那把大锤子——能说"我们完全换个方式来做——"
**Lex Fridman:** And then in the... That becomes an engineering question often. And yes, I think when you get the ground truth of actually... I remember, one of the times I was hanging out with him, he literally is going through the entire process of how to plug in cables into a rack. He's, he's working with an engineer on the ground that's doing that task, and he's just trying to understand what does that process look like so it can be less error-prone. And just building up that intuition from every single task involved in, putting together a data center— ...you start to immediately get a sense at the detailed scale and at the broad systems scale of where the inefficiencies are, and so you can make it more and more and more efficient. Plus you have the big hammer of being able to say, "Let's do it totally different-"
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. That's right.
**Lex Fridman:** "——去掉所有可能的障碍。"
**Lex Fridman:** "... and remove all possible blockers."
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right.
**Lex Fridman:** 你在 NVIDIA 的极致系统协同设计方法中,看到和 Elon 的系统工程方法的相似之处吗?
**Lex Fridman:** Is there parallels in the NVIDIA Extreme Systems co-design approach that you see in the way Elon approaches systems engineering?
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯,首先,协同设计本身就是终极的系统工程问题。所以我们从那个角度出发来做工作。另一件我们做的事情——这是一种哲学、一种思想、一种心态,我猜,一种方法——我 30 年前就开始了,叫做"光速"。光速不只是关于速度。光速是我的简写,指的是物理所能做到的极限是什么。所以每一件事,我们做的每一件事都要与光速比较。内存速度、数学运算速度、功耗、成本、时间、工作量、人数、制造周期时间。当你思考延迟与吞吐量、成本与吞吐量、成本与容量的关系时,所有这些东西你都要针对光速来检验,分别达到这些不同的约束。然后当你综合考虑时,你知道必须做妥协,因为一个实现极低延迟的系统和一个实现非常高吞吐量的廉价系统,架构上是根本不同的。但你想知道高吞吐量系统的光速是什么、低延迟系统的光速是什么。然后当你思考整个系统时,你就可以做权衡。所以我强制每个人先思考第一性原理——物理极限是什么——在我们做任何事情之前。我们拿一切来与之比较。这是一个好的思维框架。我不太喜欢另一种方法,就是持续改进。持续改进的问题是……首先,你应该从第一性原理出发、用光速思维来工程化一件事。只受物理限制。之后当然你会随时间改进它。但我不喜欢走进一个问题然后有人说,"嘿,这件事今天需要 74 天——现在。我们能帮你做到 72 天。"我宁愿把它全部剥回到零然后说,"首先,跟我解释一下为什么 74 天。让我们想想今天什么是可能的。如果我从头开始完全重建,要多久?"很多时候你会惊讶。可能只要 6 天。那剩下的——从 6 天到 74 天——可能有很好的理由和妥协,成本降低,各种各样的东西。但至少你知道它们是什么。然后现在你知道 6 天是可能的,从 74 到 6 的对话就会出奇地有效。
**Jensen Huang:** Well, first of all, co-design is an ultimate systems engineering problem. And so we approach, we approach the work that we do from that first, from that The other thing that we do and this is, this is a philosophy, a thought, a state of mind, I guess, a method, That I started 30 years ago, and it's called the speed of light. The speed of light is not just about the speed. The speed of light is, is my shorthand for what's what's the limit of what physics can do. And so every single, everything, everything that we do is compared against the speed of light. Memory speed, Math speed, power, cost, time, effort, number of people, manufacturing cycle time. And when you think about latency versus throughput, When you think about cost versus throughput, cost versus capacity, all of these things, You test against the speed of light to achieve all of these different constraints separately. And then when you consider it together, you know you have to make compromises because a system that achieves extremely low latency versus a cheap, a system that achieves very high throughput are architected fundamentally differently. But you want to know what's the speed of light of a system that achieves high throughput, what's the speed of light of a system that achieves low latency? And then when you think about the total system, you can make trade-offs. And so I force everybody to think about what's the, what the first- the first principles, the limits- ... the physical limits, For everything before we, you know, before we do anything. And we test everything against that. And so that's a good frame of mind. I don't love the other methods, which is continuous improvement. The problem with continuous improvement, it... First of all, you should engineer something from first principles at the speed, you know, with speed of light thinking. Limit it only by physical limits, and physics limits. And after that, of course you would improve it over time. Um, but I don't like going into a problem and somebody says, "Hey, you know, it takes 74 days to do this today-" "... Right now. And we can do it for you in 72 days." You know, I'd rather strip it all back to zero- ... and say, "First of all, explain to me why 74 days in the first place. And let's note, let's think about what's possible today. And if I were to build it completely from scratch, you know, how long would it take?" Oftentimes, you'd be surprised. It might come to six days. Now, the rest of the six days, the 74, could be very well-reasoned and compromises, and, you know, cost reductions, and all kinds of different things. But at least you know what they are. And then now that you know that six days is possible, then the conversation from 74 to six, surprisingly much more effective.
**Lex Fridman:** 在你们正在做的如此复杂的系统中,简洁有时候是一个好的启发式原则吗?我是说,如果我能……你刚发布的那个 Vera Rubin pod 太不可思议了。我们说的是七种芯片、五种专用机架类型、40 个机架、1.2 千万亿(quadrillion)个晶体管、近两万个 NVIDIA 芯片、超过 1100 个 Rubin GPU、60 exaflops、10 PB 每秒的规模带宽。这仅仅是一个——
**Lex Fridman:** In such incredibly complex systems that you're working with, is simplicity sometimes a good heuristic to reach for? I mean, if I can just... I mean, the pod, the Vera Rubin pod that you announced is just incredible. We're talking about seven chips, seven chip types, five purpose-built rack types, 40 racks, 1.2 quadrillion transistors, nearly 20,000 NVIDIA dies, over 1,100 Rubin GPUs, 60 exaflops, 10 petabytes per second of scale bandwidth. That's all just one...
**Jensen Huang:** 仅仅是一个 pod。
**Jensen Huang:** That's just one pod.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,仅仅一个 pod。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, that's just one pod.
**Jensen Huang:** 我是说——然后 NVL 72 机架本身就有 130 万个组件、1300 个芯片、4000 个 pod 塞进一个 19 英寸宽的机架里。
**Jensen Huang:** I mean, in- ... so you have the... And then even the NVL 72 rack alone is 1.3 million components, 1300 chips, 4,000 pods crammed into a single 19-inch wide rack.
**Jensen Huang:** 而且 Lex,我们大概每周要生产大约 200 个这样的 pod,给你一些概念。
**Jensen Huang:** And Lex, we're probably gonna have to crank out about 200 of these pods a week, just to put it in perspective.
**Lex Fridman:** 这么多不同的组件,我想简洁是不可能的,但那是你在设计时试图追求的某种指标吗?
**Lex Fridman:** The amount of different components, I suppose simplicity is impossible, but is that a metric that you kind of reach for in trying to design things?
**Jensen Huang:** 我最常用的说法是——我们需要事物复杂到必要的程度,但尽可能简单。所以问题是,所有那些复杂性是必要的吗?我们应该去检验这一点。我们得去质疑它。之后,所有多出来的——就是多余的。
**Jensen Huang:** You know, the phrase, the phrase that I use most often is, we- we need things to be as complex as necessary, but as simple as possible. And so the question is, is all that complexity there necessary? And we ought to test for that. And we got to challenge that. And then after that, everything else above it, you know, is gratuitous.
**Lex Fridman:** 但它仍然几乎令人难以置信。整个半导体行业,尤其是 NVIDIA 在做的事情,堪称人类历史上最伟大的工程成就之一。这些系统真的是工程奇迹。
**Lex Fridman:** But it's still almost incredible. Semiconductor industry broadly, but what NVIDIA is doing, some of the greatest engineering in history. So these systems are just truly, truly marvels of engineering.
**Jensen Huang:** 这是世界上有史以来最复杂的计算机。
**Jensen Huang:** It is the most complex computer the world has ever made.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,那些工程团队,我是说——这不是一个竞赛,但我不知道。如果有工程团队奥运会的话,TSMC 做了不可思议的工程。就像我说的,ASML 在每个尺度上都做得令人惊叹,但 NVIDIA 绝对能和他们一较高下。太不可思议了,太不可思议的团队了。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, the engineering teams, I mean- ... I don't, it's not a competition, but I don't know. If it was like an Olympics of engineering teams, I mean, TSMC does incredible engineering. Like I said, ASML at every scale, but NVIDIA is gonna give them a run for their money. Just incredible, incredible teams.
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯,每个单项的金牌得主,全部集结在这里。
**Jensen Huang:** Well, it's gold medalists in every single, in every single sport, all assembled right here.
**Lex Fridman:** 而且必须协同工作。而且直接向你汇报。太棒了。你最近去了中国。所以一个有趣的问题——中国在建设其科技产业方面取得了令人难以置信的成功。你理解中国是如何在过去十年里建立了这么多令人难以置信的世界级公司、世界级工程团队,以及这个能产出这么多优秀产品的科技生态系统的?
**Lex Fridman:** And have to work together. And report directly to you. This is wonderful. You recently traveled to China. so it's interesting to ask you China's been incredibly successful in building up its technology sector. What do you understand about how China's able to, over the past 10 years, build so many incredible world-class companies, world-class engineering teams, and just this technology ecosystem- ... that produces so many incredible products?
**Jensen Huang:** 有很多原因。首先我们从一些事实说起。全球 50% 的 AI 研究人员是中国人,上下浮动一点,而且他们大部分仍在中国。我们这里也有很多,但中国仍然有很棒的研究人员。他们的科技行业出现在恰好正确的时机。在移动互联网和云计算的时代,他们的贡献方式是软件。所以这是一个在科学和数学方面令人难以置信的国家。受过良好教育的孩子。他们的科技行业诞生在软件时代。他们非常适应现代软件。中国不是一个巨大的经济统一体。它有很多省和城市,市长们彼此竞争。这就是为什么有这么多电动汽车公司。这就是为什么有这么多 AI 公司。你能想到的每种公司,他们都有一些。结果就是内部有疯狂的竞争。留下来的就是了不起的公司。他们还有一种社会文化——家庭第一、朋友第二、公司第三。所以人与人之间的交流……他们本质上一直都是开源的。所以中国人对开源贡献更多是完全合理的,因为他们可能在想,"我们保护什么?"我的工程师的兄弟在那家公司,他们的朋友在那家公司,他们都是校友。校友这个概念。一个校友就是一辈子的兄弟。所以他们分享知识非常非常快。藏着技术没有意义。不如放到开源上。所以开源社区就放大、加速了创新过程。你就得到了这种——不可思议的优秀人才,加上开源和朋友文化带来的快速创新,加上疯狂的竞争。公司之间——留下来的就是不可思议的东西。所以这是当今世界上创新最快的国家。我刚才说的所有这些都是根本性的——孩子是怎么长大的,他们有优秀的教育,家长希望他们在学校表现好,他们的文化就是这样。这些就是这个国家的特点,而且他们恰好赶上了技术指数级增长的时机。
**Jensen Huang:** A whole bunch of reasons for, well, first of all, let's start with some facts. 50% of the world's AI researchers are Chinese, plus or minus, and they're mostly in China still. We have many of them here, but there's amazing researchers still in China. They, their tech industry showed up at precisely the right time. At the time of the mobile cloud era their way of contributing was software, and so this is a country's incredible science and math. Really well-educated kids. Their tech industry was created during the era of software. They're very comfortable with modern software. China is not one giant economic country. It's got many provinces and cities with mayors all competing with each other. That's the reason why there's so many EV companies. That's the reason why there's so many AI companies. That's the reason why there's so many, every company you could imagine, they all create some of them. And as a result, they have insane competition internally. And, you know, what remains is an incredible company. They also have a social culture where it's family first, friends second, and company third. And so, the amount of conversation that goes back and forth between... They're essentially open source all the time. So the fact that they contribute more to open source is so sensible because they're probably, "What are we protecting?" You know, my engineers, their brothers are in that company, their friends are in that company, and they're all schoolmates. You know, the schoolmate concept. There's a, you know, one schoolmate, you're brother for life. And so they, they share knowledge very, very quickly. And so there's no sense keeping technology hidden. You might as well put it on open source. And so the open source community then amplifies, accelerates the innovation process. So you get this rapid, incredible great talent, rapid innovation because of open source and just, you know, the nature of friends, and insane competition. Among comp- among the company, what emerges is incredible stuff. And so this is the fastest innovating country in the world today, and this is something that has everything that, everything that I've just said is fundamental to just how the kids were grown, the fact that they have excellent education, the fact that they, parents want them to do well in school, the fact that they, their culture is that way. These are, you know, these are just the thing about their country, and they showed up at precisely the time when technology is going through that exponential.
**Lex Fridman:** 而且在文化上,做工程师是很酷的事情。这和你提到的所有因素都联系在一起……
**Lex Fridman:** Plus culturally, it's pretty cool to be an engineer. It connects to all the components that you're mentioning...
**Jensen Huang:** 这是一个建设者的国度。
**Jensen Huang:** It's a builder nation.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,一个建设者的国度。我们国家的领导人很了不起,但他们大多是律师。他们国家的领导人——因为我们在维护安全、法治、治理——他们的国家是从贫困中建设起来的。所以他们的大部分领导人都是了不起的工程师。一些最聪明的头脑。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, it's a builder nation. Our country's leaders, incredible, but they're mostly lawyers. Their country's leaders, and because we're, they're trying to keep us safe, rule of law, governing, their country was built out of poverty. And so most of their leaders are incredible engineers. Some of the brightest minds.
**Lex Fridman:** 说到开源,稍微岔开一下,因为你提到了——我得说一下 Perplexity,你一直是它的粉丝。
**Lex Fridman:** To take a small tangent, because you mentioned open source, I have to go to Perplexity here, who you have been a fan of a long time.
**Jensen Huang:** 喜欢它,是的。
**Jensen Huang:** Love it, yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 感谢你开源了 Nemotron 3 Super——你也可以在 Perplexity 里使用它来搜索。这是一个 1200 亿参数的开源权重 MoE 模型。你对开源的愿景是什么?你提到了中国的 DeepSeek 和 MiniMax,以及所有这些真正推动开源 AI 运动的公司,而 NVIDIA 在接近最先进水平的开源 LLM 方面确实走在前列。你的愿景是什么?
**Lex Fridman:** And thank you for releasing open source Nemotron 3 Super, which you can also use inside Perplexity to look stuff up. Now, which is 120 billion parameter open weight MoE model. What's your vision with open source? So you mentioned China with DeepSeek and MiniMax, with all these companies really pushing forward the open source AI movement, and NVIDIA is really leading the way in close to state-of-the-art open source LLMs. What's your vision there?
**Jensen Huang:** 首先,如果我们要成为一家伟大的 AI 计算公司,我们必须理解 AI 模型是如何演进的。我喜欢 Nemotron 3 的一点是它不仅仅是一个纯 transformer 模型——它是 transformer 加 SSM。我们很早就开始开发条件 GAN,然后是渐进式 GAN,一步步引向了扩散模型(diffusion)。所以我们在模型架构和不同领域的基础研究让我们能看到,什么样的计算系统能为未来的模型做好准备。这是我们极致协同设计战略的一部分。第二,我认为我们正确地认识到,一方面我们想要世界级的模型作为产品,它们应该是专有的。另一方面,我们也希望 AI 扩散到每个行业、每个国家、每个研究人员、每个学生。如果所有东西都是专有的,就很难做研究,也很难在其上创新。所以开源对很多行业加入 AI 革命是根本性的必需品。NVIDIA 有规模,有技能、规模和动力去构建这些 AI 模型并持续下去。所以我们应该这样做。我们可以让每个行业、每个研究人员、每个国家都能加入 AI 革命。第三个原因是,从那里出发要认识到 AI 不仅仅是语言。这些 AI 可能会使用在其他信息模态上训练的工具、模型和子智能体。也许是生物学、化学、物理定律、流体力学和热力学——不是所有东西都是语言结构。所以必须有人确保天气预测、生物 AI、物理 AI,所有这些东西都能被推到极限和前沿。我们不造汽车,但我们想确保每家汽车公司都能用到好模型。我们不做药物发现,但我想确保礼来(Lilly)拥有世界上最好的生物 AI 系统来发现药物。所以这三个根本原因——认识到 AI 不仅仅是语言、AI 真的很广泛、我们想让每个人都参与到 AI 世界中,以及 AI 的协同设计。
**Jensen Huang:** First, if we're gonna be a great AI computing company, we have to understand how AI models are evolving. One of the things that I love about Nemotron 3 is it's not a, just a pure transformer model, it's transformer and SSMs. And we were early in, Developing the conditional GANs, which, that progressive GANs, which led step-by-step to diffusion. And so, The fact that we're doing basic research in model architecture and in different domains gives us visibility into, you know, what kind of computing systems would do a good job for future models. And so it is part of our extreme co-design strategy. Second, um, I think we rightfully recognize that on the one hand, we want world-class models as products, and they should be proprietary. On the other hand, we also want AI to diffuse into every industry and every country, every researcher, every student. And if everything is proprietary, it's hard to do research and it's hard to innovate on top of, around, with. And so...Open source is fundamentally necessary for many industries to join the AI revolution. NVIDIA has the scale and we have the motives to not only skills, scale, and motivation to build and continue to build these AI models for as long as we shall live. And so therefore, we ought to do that. We can open up, we can activate every industry, every researcher, you know, every country to be able to join the AI revolution. There's the third reason, which is from that, to recognizing that AI is not just language. These AIs will likely use tools and models and sub-agents that were trained on other modalities of information. Maybe it's biology or chemistry or you know, laws of physics, or you know, fluids and thermodynamics, and not all of it is in language structure. And so somebody has to go make sure that weather prediction, biology, AI, AI for biology, physical AI, all of that stuff stays, can be pushed to the limits and pushed to the frontier. We don't build cars, but we wanna make sure every car company has access to great models. We don't, discover drugs, but I wanna make sure that Lilly has the world's best biology AI systems, so that they can go use it for discovering drugs. And so these three fundamental reasons, both in, recognizing that AI is not just language, that AI is really broad, that we wanna engage everybody into the world of AI, and then also co-design of AI.
**Lex Fridman:** 我得再次说,谢谢你真正开源了 Nemotron 3。
**Lex Fridman:** Well, I have to say, once again, thank you for open sourcing, really truly open sourcing Nemotron 3 and ...
**Jensen Huang:** 谢谢你这么说。我们开源了模型,开源了权重,开源了数据,开源了我们如何创建它的方法。是的,非常了不起。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, I appreciate you were saying that. We open sourced the models, we open sourced the weights, we open sourced the data, we open sourced how we created it. Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
**Lex Fridman:** 真的很不可思议。你来自台湾,和 TSMC 有很密切的关系。所以我得问——我认为 TSMC 也是一家传奇公司,无论是工程团队还是他们做的不可思议的工程。你对 TSMC 的文化和方法有什么理解,能解释他们是如何在半导体领域取得这种无与伦比的成功的?
**Lex Fridman:** Uh, it's really, it's really incredible. You're originally from Taiwan and have a close relationship with TSMC. So I have to ask, TSMC I think also is a legendary company in terms of the engineering teams, in terms of the incredible engineering work that they do. What what do you understand about TSMC culture and their approach that explains how they're able to achieve this singular unmatched success in everything they're doing with semiconductors?
**Jensen Huang:** 首先,对 TSMC 最大的误解是他们的技术就是他们的全部。好像他们有一个很好的晶体管,如果别人也搞出了另一种晶体管,就完了。当然技术——不仅仅是晶体管,金属化系统、封装、3D 封装、硅光子学——所有他们拥有的技术。那些技术确实让这家公司很特别。但他们能够协调世界上数百家公司动态变化的需求——增加、减少、推迟、提前、客户之间转换、晶圆开始、晶圆停止、紧急晶圆排产——世界的复杂性在不断变化,而他们不知怎么就在高吞吐、高良率、很好的成本、出色的客户服务下运营着工厂。他们认真对待自己的工作。他们认真对待承诺。他们知道他们在帮你运营你的公司——当晶圆承诺交付的时候,晶圆就会按时到达,让你能正常经营。所以他们的制造系统完全可以说是奇迹般的。然后第二件事是他们的文化。这种文化同时是——一方面以技术为中心、推进技术前沿,另一方面以客户服务为导向。很多公司很注重客户服务但技术不在前沿。有很多公司技术处于最前沿但不是最好的客户服务型公司。而他们不知怎么就平衡了这两者,而且在两方面都是世界级的。然后第三件事——他们创造的我最看重的技术——是一种无形的东西,叫信任。我信任他们,把我的公司建立在他们之上。这是一件非常重要的事情。
**Jensen Huang:** You know, first of all, the deepest misunderstanding about TSMC is that their technology is all they have. That somehow they have a really great transistor, and if somebody shows up another transistor, game over. It's the technology and of course, you know, I don't mean just the transistor, the metallization systems, the packaging, the 3D packaging, the silicon photonics, the, you know, all of the technology th at they have. That technology is really what makes the company special. Their technology makes the company special. But their ability to orchestrate the demands, the dynamic demands of hundreds of companies in the world as they're moving up, shifting out, you know, increasing, decreasing, push, pushing out, pulling in changing from customer to customer, Wafer starting, wafer stopping, Emergency wafer starts, you know, all of this dynamics of the world's complexity as the world is shape-shifting all the time, and somehow they're running a factory with high throughput, high yields, really great costs, excellent customer service. They take their work, they take their promises seriously. They, when your wafer, because they know that they're helping you run your company, when the wafers, when the wafers were promised to show up, the wafers show up, you know, so that you could run your company appropriately. And so their system, their manufacturing system is completely miraculous, I would say. Then the second thing is their culture. This culture is simultaneously, Technology focused on one hand, advancing technology, simultaneously customer service oriented on the other hand. A lot of companies are very customer service oriented, but they're not very technology excellent. They're not at the bleeding edge of technology. There are a lot of companies who are tech, at the bleeding edge of technology, but they're not the best customer service oriented company. And so it just depends on somehow they've, they've balanced these two and they're world-class at both. And then probably the third thing is the technology that I most value in them that they created this, you know, this, Intangible called trust. I trust them to put my company on top of them. That's a very big deal.
**Lex Fridman:** 当你说信任——你们之间有非常紧密的关系,这种信任是基于多年的表现建立的,但其中也有人际关系。
**Lex Fridman:** When they trust, I mean, there's a really close relationship there that you've established, and that trust is established based on many years of performance, but there's human relationships involved there as well.
**Jensen Huang:** 三十年,我不知道有多少百亿美元的生意我们通过他们做了,而我们没有一份合同。这很了不起。
**Jensen Huang:** Three decades, I don't know how many tens, hundreds of billions of dollars of business we've done through them, and we don't have a contract. That's pretty great.
**Lex Fridman:** 太不可思议了。好的,有这么一个故事……2013 年,TSMC 的创始人张忠谋邀你担任 TSMC 的首席执行官。你说你已经有工作了。这个故事是真的吗?
**Lex Fridman:** Amazing. Okay, there's this story ... ... That in 2013, the founders of TSMC, Morris Chang offered you the chance to become TSMC's chief executive, And you said you already had a job. Is this story true?
**Jensen Huang:** 故事是真的。我没有轻视它。我深感荣幸,而且当然,我当时就知道——就像我现在知道的一样——TSMC 是历史上最重要的公司之一。Morris 是我一生中最受尊敬的高管、商业伙伴和个人朋友之一。他来邀请,我受宠若惊,真的很荣幸。但我在这里做的工作非常重要,我在心里已经看到了 NVIDIA 将会成为什么样子以及我们能产生的影响。这是非常重要的工作。这是我的责任,我唯一的责任来实现它。所以我婉拒了。不是因为那不是一个不可思议的邀请。那是一个难以置信的邀请,但我就是不能接受。
**Jensen Huang:** Story is true. I didn't dismiss it. Um but I was deeply honored and, and of course, of course uh, I knew then as I know now, TSMC is one of the most consequential companies in history. And, and Morris is one of the highest regarded executive and, and business and personal friend that I've had in my life. And, um ...Uh, for him to ask is, uh um, I was humbled and, and really honored. But, but the work that I'm doing here is really important, and I've seen, you know, in my mind's eye, what NVIDIA was going to be and what the impact that we could have. And uh, it was really important work. And it's my responsibility, you know, my sole responsibility to make this happen. And so I uh, I declined it, You know, not, not because it wasn't an incredible offer. It's an unbelievable offer but, but I simply couldn't take it.
**Lex Fridman:** 我认为 NVIDIA 和 TSMC 都是人类文明史上最伟大的公司之一。管理其中任何一家,我相信都是极其复杂的,需要……你必须真的全身心投入。不仅仅是 CEO 层面。每个人在每个层面都真的是全身心投入的——
**Lex Fridman:** I think NVIDIA, both NVIDIA and TSMC are two of the greatest companies in the history of human civilization. And running either one, I'm sure, is incredibly complicated effort and takes... You have to truly be all in. Uh, everybody at every scale, not just at the CEO level. Everybody is really truly all in-
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. Yeah, no doubt
**Lex Fridman:** ——才能完成这种复杂度。
**Lex Fridman:** ... To, to accomplish this kind of complexity.
**Jensen Huang:** 所以现在我可以帮助两家公司。
**Jensen Huang:** So now I can help both companies.
**Lex Fridman:** 没错。那 NVIDIA 现在是世界上市值最高的公司。我得问,NVIDIA 最大的护城河是什么——用科技圈的说法?你有什么优势能保护你免受竞争?
**Lex Fridman:** Exactly. So NVIDIA is now the most valuable company in the world. I have to ask, what is the NVIDIA's biggest moat, as the folks in the tech sector say? The edge you have that protects you from the competition.
**Jensen Huang:** 我们作为一家公司最重要的资产是我们计算平台的装机量。我们今天最重要的东西就是 CUDA 的装机量。20 年前,当然没有装机量。但如果有人搞出个 GUDA 或 TUDA,也完全不会有任何影响。原因在于这从来不只是关于技术。技术当然具有不可思议的远见。但关键是公司对它的投入、坚持、扩大覆盖面。不是三个人让 CUDA 成功的。是 43000 个人让 CUDA 成功的。还有那几百万相信我们的开发者——相信我们会继续做 CUDA 1、2、3、13——他们决定把自己的软件、大量的软件构建在 CUDA 之上。所以装机量是第一大优势。当你把装机量和我们在这个规模上的执行速度结合起来——历史上没有任何公司曾经构建过这种复杂度的系统,而且每年做一次更是不可能的。这种速度加上装机量,在开发者心里——从开发者的角度来看,如果我支持 CUDA,明天它就会好 10 倍。我只需要平均等六个月。不仅如此,如果我在 CUDA 上开发,我能触达几亿台计算机。我在每个云上、在每家计算机公司、在每个行业、在每个国家。所以如果我创建一个开源包并首先放在 CUDA 上,我同时获得这两个属性。而且我 100% 相信 NVIDIA 会继续维护 CUDA、改进它、优化那些库,只要公司存在一天。你可以把这当成板上钉钉的事——最后这个部分,信任。把所有这些放在一起,如果我今天是一个开发者,我会首先瞄准 CUDA。我会最多地支持 CUDA。这就是为什么我认为最终分析来看,这是我们的第一——核心优势。我们的第二个优势是生态系统。我们垂直整合了这个极其复杂的系统,但我们把它水平整合进了每一家公司的计算机。我们在 Google Cloud、在 Amazon、在 Azure。我们在 AWS 上疯狂扩展。我们在 CoreWeave 和 Nscale 这样的新公司里。我们在礼来的超级计算机里。我们在企业计算机里。我们在边缘的无线基站里。一个架构存在于所有这些不同的系统中。我们在汽车里、在机器人里、在卫星里、在太空里。这个生态系统如此之广,基本上覆盖了世界上每一个行业。
**Jensen Huang:** Our single most important property as a company is the install base of our computing platform. Our single most important thing today is our, is the install base of CUDA. Now, the reason why, uh, 20 years ago, of course, there was no install base. But what makes... And if somebody came up with a GUDA or TUDA it wouldn't make any difference at all. And the reason for that is because it's never been just about the technology. The technology, of course, was incredible visionary. But it's the fact that the company was dedicated to it, stuck with it, expanded its reach. Um, it wasn't three people that made CUDA successful. It was 43,000 people that made CUDA successful. And the several million developers that believed in us, That trusted that we were going to continue to make CUDA 1, 2, 3, 13, that they decided to port and dedicate their software on top of it, their mountain of software on top of it. And so the install base is the number one most important advantage. That install base, when you amplify it with the velocity of our execution at the scale that we're talking about, no company in history had ever built systems of this complexity, period. And then to build it once a year is impossible. And that velocity combined with the install base, in the developer's mind, you just go now, take the developer's mind. From the developer's perspective, if I support CUDA, tomorrow it'll be 10 times better. I just have to wait six months on average. Not only that, if I develop it on CUDA, I reach a few hundred million people, computers. I'm in every cloud, I'm in every computer company, I'm in every single industry, I'm in every single country. So if I create an open source package and I put it on CUDA first, I get these both attributes simultaneously. And not only that, I trust 100% that NVIDIA is going to keep CUDA around and maintain it and improve it and keep optimizing the libraries for as long as they shall live. You could take that to the bank, and that last part, trust. You put all that stuff together, if I were a developer today, I would target CUDA first. I would target CUDA most. And that's the reason that I think in the final analysis is our first, that's even our first- core advantage. Our second one is our ecosystem. The fact that we vertically integrated this incredibly complex system, but we integrate it horizontally into every single company's computers. We're into Google Cloud, we're into Amazon, we're in Azure. You know, we're ramping up AWS like crazy right now. We're in new companies like CoreWeave and Nscale. We're in supercomputers at Lilly. We're in enterprise computers. We're at the edge in radio base stations. You know, I mean, it's just crazy. One architecture is in all these different systems. We're in cars, we're in robots, we're in satellites, we're out in space. And so the fact that you have this one architecture and the ecosystem is so broad, it basically covers every single industry in the world.
**Lex Fridman:** 那 CUDA 装机量如何演变为未来 AI 工厂的护城河?你认为 NVIDIA 的未来是不是全部关于 AI 工厂?
**Lex Fridman:** Well, how does the, how does the CUDA install base evolve into the future with AI factories as a moat? What do you... Do you think it's possible that NVIDIA of the future is all about the AI factory?
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯,过去对我们来说,计算的单位是 GPU。然后变成了一台计算机,然后变成了一个集群。现在是整个 AI 工厂。当我看到一台计算机,当我看到 NVIDIA 建造什么——在过去,我会想象那块芯片。当我宣布新产品、新一代的时候,比如"女士们先生们,我们今天发布 Ampere",我会拿起芯片。那是我对我正在建造的东西的心理模型。今天,我不会……拿起芯片还是很可爱。但那是可爱。那不再是我的心理模型。我的心理模型是一个巨大的吉瓦级的东西,有发电系统连接到电网。有令人难以置信的冷却系统和庞大的网络。一万人在里面安装,数百名网络工程师在里面,成千上万的工程师在后面启动它。启动其中一个工厂,你知道的,不是有人按一下"开"就行了。需要成千上万人来启动它。
**Jensen Huang:** Well, the unit of computing used to be GPU to us. Then it became a computer, then it became a cluster. Now it's an entire AI factory. When I see a computer, when I see what NVIDIA builds, in the old days, I would, you know, I visualize the chip. And then when I announced the new product, new generation, like, "Ladies and gentlemen, we're announcing Ampere today," I'd pick up the chip. That was my mental model- ... of what I was building. Today, I wouldn't... Picking up the chip is kind of still adorable. But it's adorable. It's not my mental model of what I'm doing. My mental model is this giant gigawatt thing that has power generations connected to the grid. It's got cooling systems and networking of incredible monstrosity, you know. 10,000 people are in there trying to install it, hundreds of networking engineers in there, thousands of engineers behind it trying to power it up. You know, powering up one of those factories, as you know, it's not somebody going, "It's on now." It takes thousands of people to bring it up.
**Lex Fridman:** 所以在心理上,你实际上……当你在想一个计算单元的时候,你真的——当你晚上上床睡觉的时候,你现在想的是一组机架,pod,而不是单个芯片。
**Lex Fridman:** So mentally, you're actually... When you're thinking about a single unit of compute, you're like literally, when you go to bed at night, you're thinking now about collection of racks, so pods, not individual chips.
**Jensen Huang:** 整个基础设施。我希望我的下一个认知跳跃是——当我想到建造计算机时,是行星级别的。那将是下一个跳跃。
**Jensen Huang:** Entire infrastructure. And I'm hoping my next click is when I'm thinking about building computers, it's, you know, planetary scale. That'll be the next click.
**Lex Fridman:** 那你怎么看 Elon 谈到的太空计算角度——在太空中做计算来解决一些能源扩展的问题?
**Lex Fridman:** Well, what do you think about the space angle that Elon has talked about, doing compute in space for solving some of the... It makes some of the energy issues in terms of scaling energy easier.
**Jensen Huang:** 散热问题不容易。是的。
**Jensen Huang:** Cooling issues is not easy. Yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 散热。好吧,有大量的工程复杂性。那……NVIDIA 也宣布了你们已经在考虑这个了。
**Lex Fridman:** Cooling. Well, there's a large number of engineering complexities involved with that. So, so what... You know, NVIDIA has also announced that you're already thinking about that.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,我们已经在那里了。NVIDIA GPU 是第一个进入太空的 GPU。我当时不知道,挺有意思的……我本来会宣布一下的。我们在太空了。一个小宇航服穿在我们的一块 GPU 上。但我们一直在太空中。那是做大量图像处理的好地方。因为那些卫星有非常高分辨率的成像系统,而且它们持续扫描地球。你想要厘米级的成像——持续对全世界做的成像,这样你基本上就有了一切的实时遥测。你不想把这些数据传回地球。那是 PB 级又 PB 级的数据。你得在边缘就做 AI,扔掉所有你不需要的、之前见过的、没变化的东西,只保留你需要的。所以 AI 必须在边缘完成。显然如果放在极地,我们有 24/7 的太阳能。但没有传导、没有对流。基本上就靠辐射散热。但太空很大。我猜我们就在那里放大的散热器。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, we're already there. NVIDIA GPUs are the first GPUs in space. And I didn't realize it, it was so interesting to... I would have declared it maybe. We're in space. You know, little, little astronaut suit on one of our GPUs. But we've been in space. It's the right place to do a lot of imaging. You know, because those satellites have, have really high resolution imaging systems, and they're sweeping the Earth, you know, continuously now. And, um, you want, you know, centimeter scale, imaging imaging that is done continuously for the world, so that, you know, you'll basically have real time telemetry of everything. You don't wanna beam that back down to earth. It's just, you know, petabytes and petabytes of data. You gotta just do AI right there at the edge, throw away everything you don't need, you've seen before, didn't change, and then just keep the stuff that, that you need. And so AI had to be done at the edge. Obviously we have, we have a 24/7 solar, if we put it at the polars. And uh, but, you know, there's no conduction, no convection. And so, you know, you're pretty much just radiation. And uh, but, you know, space is big. I guess, you know, we're just gonna put big, giant radiators out there.
**Lex Fridman:** 这个想法有多疯狂?这是 5 年后、10 年后、20 年后的事?我们在谈论 AI 扩展的障碍。
**Lex Fridman:** How crazy of an idea do you think it is? Like is this, is this five years out, 10 years out, 20 years out? So we're talking about blockers for AI scaling.
**Jensen Huang:** 我就是更务实一些。我先看下一个可用的机会在哪里。同时,我在培育太空方向。我派工程师去研究这个问题。我们在学到很多。我们怎么处理辐射?怎么处理性能衰减?怎么持续测试和验证缺陷?怎么处理冗余?怎么优雅地降级?软件呢?怎么考虑太空中的软件、冗余和性能?让计算机永远不会坏,只是变慢。所以我们可以做很多前期的工程探索。但与此同时,我最喜欢的答案是——消除浪费。电网上有那么多闲置电力,我想尽快把它用起来。
**Jensen Huang:** You know, I'm just so much more practical. I look for where, where, um my next, next bucket of opportunities are first. Meanwhile, I'm cultivating space. And so I send engineers to go work on the problem. We're starting to... We're learning a lot about it. How do we deal with radiation? How do we deal with degrading performance? How do we deal with a continuous, Testing and attestation of, of de- defects? And you know, how do we deal with redundancy? And how do we degrade gracefully and things like that? And so we could, we could do a... What about software? How do you think about software and redundancy and performance out in space? Make it so that the computer never breaks, it just gets slower, you know. And I... So we could start doing a lot of engineer exploration upfront. But in the meantime, my, my favorite answer is ge- eliminate waste. You know, we've got all that idle power, I want to evacuate it as fast as possible.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的。在地球上有很多唾手可得的果实可以用来支撑 AI 扩展。暂停一下。快速 30 秒感谢我们的赞助商。在描述中查看。这确实是支持本播客的最好方式。去 lexfridman.com/sponsors。我们有 Perplexity 做好奇心驱动的知识探索、Shopify 做在线销售、LMNT 做电解质、Fin 做客服 AI 智能体、Quo 做商务电话系统。好好选择,朋友们。现在回到和 Jensen Huang 的对话。你觉得 NVIDIA 有可能在某个时候价值 10 万亿美元吗?换种方式问吧。在什么样的未来世界里那是真实的?
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit here on Earth- ... That we can utilize for the AI scaling. Quick pause. Quick 30-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. We got Perplexity for curiosity-driven knowledge exploration, Shopify for selling stuff online, LMNT for electrolytes, Fin for customer service AI agents, and Quo for a phone system, like calls, texts, contacts, for your business. Choose wisely, my friends. And now, back to my conversation with Jensen Huang. Do you think NVIDIA may be worth 10 trillion at some point? Let's ask it this way. What does the future of the world look like where that's true?
**Jensen Huang:** 我认为 NVIDIA 的增长是极其可能的,在我看来是必然的。让我解释为什么。我们是历史上最大的计算机公司。光这一点就应该引出一个问题——为什么?原因当然……两个基础性的技术原因。第一个原因是,计算从一个基于检索的文件检索系统——几乎所有东西都是文件。我们预先写好、预先录制好。画好放到网上、放到文件里。然后用一个推荐系统、某种智能过滤器来决定给你检索什么。所以我们是一个人类预录、文件检索的系统。那就是计算机的本质,大体上是这样。现在,AI 计算机是上下文感知的,意味着它必须实时处理和生成 token。所以我们从基于检索的计算系统转向了基于生成的计算系统。在这个新世界里我们会需要比旧世界多得多的处理能力。旧世界需要大量存储。新世界需要大量计算。这就是第一部分。我们从根本上改变了计算和计算方式。唯一会让它倒退的——是如果这种计算方式,这种上下文相关、情境感知的、在生成信息之前基于新洞察进行推理的计算密集型方式——只有在它无效的时候才会倒退。在过去十年、十五年做深度学习的过程中,如果有任何一刻我得出结论说"这行不通了。这是死胡同。"或者"它不会扩展、不会解决这种模态、不会用在这个应用上。"那我当然会感觉完全不同。但过去五年给了我比之前十年更多的信心。第二个想法是——计算机因为是存储系统,本质上是仓库。我们现在在建工厂。仓库赚不了多少钱。工厂直接与公司的收入相关。所以计算机做了两件事。不仅改变了做事的方式,它在世界中的用途也改变了。它不再是计算机了,它是工厂。它是工厂,用来创造收入。我们现在不仅看到这个工厂在生产产品——人们想要消费的商品——我们还看到这些商品如此有趣、如此有价值、对如此多不同的受众有价值,以至于 token 开始分层,就像 iPhone 一样。有免费 token、有高级 token,中间还有好几种。所以智能,事实证明是一种可扩展的产品。有极高智能的产品——用于专门用途的 token——人们愿意付费。有人愿意为每百万 token 支付 1000 美元——这就在不远的将来。不是会不会的问题,只是什么时候的问题。所以我们现在看到这个工厂生产的商品实际上是有价值的、能创造收入和利润的。那问题是——世界需要多少这样的工厂?世界需要多少 token?社会愿意为这些 token 付多少钱?如果生产力大幅提升,世界经济会发生什么?我们会不会发现新药、新产品、新服务?当你把这些综合起来,我绝对确定世界 GDP 将加速增长。我绝对确定用于计算的 GDP 比例将比过去多 100 倍——因为它不再是存储单元了。它是产品生成单元。在这个背景下,你再反过来推算 NVIDIA 做什么、这个新经济的多少份额我们需要获取,我觉得我们会大得多、大得多。然后剩下的——对我来说——NVIDIA 在不远的将来能不能成为一家 3 万亿美元收入的公司?答案当然是可以的。因为它不受任何物理限制。我看不到什么会说 3 万亿不可能。而且 NVIDIA 的供应链——负担是由 200 家公司共同承担的。我们在合作伙伴生态系统的支持下扩展——问题是我们有没有能源来做。而我们肯定会有能源。所有这些加在一起,那个数字只是一个数字。我还记得,NVIDIA 第一次跨过 10 亿美元的时候,一位 CEO 告诉我,"Jensen,理论上不可能有一家无晶圆厂半导体公司超过 10 亿美元。"我不会用原因烦你,但当然那是不合逻辑的,有大量证据证明不是这样。然后又有人告诉我,"Jensen,你永远不会超过 250 亿美元,因为某家公司。"又有人告诉我,"你永远不会……"所以——那些不是第一性原理思考。简单的思考方式是——我们做什么?我们能创造的机会有多大?现在,NVIDIA 不是在做市场份额的生意。我刚才说的几乎所有东西都还不存在。这才是难的部分。如果 NVIDIA 是一家 100 亿美元的公司试图抢份额,那股东很容易看到——哦,如果他们能拿到 10% 的份额,就能大这么多。但人们很难想象我们能有多大,因为我没有任何人可以抢份额。所以我觉得这是对世界的一个挑战——对未来的想象力。但我有的是时间,我会继续推理,继续说,每一次 GTC 都会变得越来越真实。越来越多的人会讨论它,总有一天我们会到那里。但我 100% 确信我们会到那里。
**Jensen Huang:** I think that NVIDIA's growth is Extremely likely, and in my mind, inevitable. And let me explain why. We're the largest computer company in history. That alone should beg the question, why? And the reason of course... Two reasons. First, two foundational technical reasons. The first reason is that computing went from being a retrieval-based, file retrieval system. Almost everything is a file... We pre-write something, we pre-record something. You know, we draw something, we put it on the web, we put it in a file. And we use a recommender system, some smart filter, to figure out what to retrieve for you. And so we were a pre-recording, human pre-recording, and file retrieving system. That's what a computer is, largely. To now, AI computers are contextually aware, which means that it has to process and generate tokens in real time. So we went from a retrieval-based computing system to a generative-based computing system. We're gonna need a lot more processing in this new world than in the old world. We need a lot of storage in the old world. We need a lot of computation in this new world. And so, so that's the first part of it. We fundamentally changed computing and the way how computing is done. The only thing that would cause it to go back...... is if this way of computation, this way of computing generating information that's contextually relevant, situationally aware, that is grounded on new insight before it generates information, this computation-intensive way of doing computing would only go back if it's not effective. So if... For the last 10, 15 years while working on deep learning, if at any single moment I would have come to the conclusion that, "You know what? This is not gonna work out. I think this is a dead end." Or, "It's not gonna scale, it's not gonna solve this modality, not gonna be used in this application." Then, of course, I would feel very differently about it, but I think the last five years has given me more confidence than the last ten year, previous ten years. The second idea, is computers, because it was a storage system, it was largely a warehouse. We're now building factories. Warehouses don't make much money. Factories directly correlates with the company's revenues. And so, the computer did two things. Not only did it change the way it did it, its purpose in the world changed. It's no longer a computer, it's a factory. It's a factory, it's used for generation of revenues. We're now seeing not only is this factory generating products, commodities that people want to consume, we're seeing that the commodities are so interesting, so valuable, so, to so many different audiences that the tokens are starting to segment, like iPhones. Mm-hmm. You have free tokens, you have premium tokens, and you have several tokens in the middle. Yeah. And so intelligence, as it turns out, you know, it's a scalable product. There's extremely high intelligence products, tokens that you could... that are used for specialized things, people be willing to pay. You know, the idea that somebody's willing to pay $1000 per million tokens is just around the corner. It's not if, it's only when. And so now we're seeing that the commodity that this factory makes is actually valuable, and is revenue generating and profit generating. How, now the question is how many of these factories can, does the world need? How much, how many tokens does the world need? And how much is society willing to pay for these tokens? And what would happen to the world's economy if the productivity were to improve so substantially? What would happen... Are we, are we gonna discover new drugs, new products, new services? And so when you take these things in combination, I am absolutely certain that the world's GDP is going to accelerate in growth. I'm absolutely certain the percentage of that GDP that will be used for computation will be 100 times more than the past... because it's no longer a storage unit. It's a product generation unit. And so when you look at it in that context and then you back into what is NVIDIA's, what does NVIDIA does NVIDIA do and how much of that new economics, new industry would we have to benefit to address, I think we're gonna be a lot, lot bigger. And then the rest of it, to me, is is it possible for NVIDIA to be a, you know, $3 trillion revenues company in the near future? The answer is of course yes. And the reason for that is because it's not limited by any physical limits. There's nothing that I see that says, you know, gosh, $3 trillion is not possible. And as it turns out, NVIDIA's supply chain is, the burden is shared by 200 companies. And the fact that we scale out on the backs with the partnership of this ecosystem, the question is do we have the energy to do so? And surely we will have the energy to do so. And so all of these things combined, that number is just a number, you know? And I still remember, NVIDIA was a, NVIDIA was a, the first time we crossed a billion dollars, I was reminded of a CEO who told me, "You know, Jensen, it's theoretically impossible for a fabless semiconductor company to exceed a billion dollars." And I won't bore you with why, but the end, of course it's illogical and there's a lot of evidence we're not. And then, somebody told me, "You know, Jensen, you'll never be more than $25 billion because of some other company." Somebody told me that, "You'll never be, you know, because..." And so the, those aren't first principled thinking. And the simple way to think about that is what is it that we make and how large is the opportunity that we can create? Now, NVIDIA is not in the market share business. Almost everything that I just talked about don't exist. That's the part that's hard. You know, if NVIDIA was a $10 billion company trying to take market share, then it's easy to see for shareholders that, oh, yeah, if they could just take 10% share, they could be this much larger. But it's hard for people to imagine how large we could be because there's nobody I could take share from. You know? And so I think that that's one of the challenges.... for the world is, is the imagination of the future. But I got plenty of time, and I'll keep reasoning about it, and I'll keep talking about it, and every single GTC will become more and more real. You know, and then more and more people will talk about it, and one of these days, you know, we'll get there. But I'm 100% we'll get there.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,这个观点——token 工厂,每瓦每秒 token,每个 token 都有价值。就像一个真正带来价值的实体,给不同的人带来不同种类、不同数量的价值。实际的产品,可以宽泛地理解为 token。然后你有一堆 token 工厂。然后从第一性原理出发,很容易想象一个未来——鉴于 AI 能解决的所有潜在问题——你将需要指数级增长的 token 工厂。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, this view of you know, token factories essentially, this token per second per watt, and every token having value. Like it's an actual thing that brings value, and it brings different kinds of value, different amounts of value to different people with value. That's the actual product, is really could be loosely thought of as the token. And so you have a bunch of token factories. And then it's very easy, first principles, to imagine a future, given all the potential things that AI can solve, that you're going to need an exponential number more of token factories.
**Jensen Huang:** 真正有趣的是——这就是为什么我如此兴奋——token 的 iPhone 到来了。
**Jensen Huang:** And what's really interesting, the reason why I was so excited about it, the iPhone of tokens arrived.
**Lex Fridman:** 你怎么称呼它?等等,你是说 OpenClaw 是 iPhone?这很有趣。
**Lex Fridman:** What do you call it? Wait, are you saying OpenClaw's iPhone? That's interesting.
**Jensen Huang:** 智能体。
**Jensen Huang:** Agents.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,智能体。确实。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, agents. True.
**Jensen Huang:** 广义上的智能体。token 的 iPhone 到来了。它是历史上增长最快的应用。它直线飙升。
**Jensen Huang:** Agents in general. The iPhone of tokens arrived. It is the fastest-growing application in history. It went straight up. Went straight up.
**Lex Fridman:** 这说明了一些事情。
**Lex Fridman:** That says something.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,毫无疑问 OpenClaw 就是 token 的 iPhone。
**Jensen Huang:** Yep, there's no question OpenClaw is the iPhone of tokens.
**Lex Fridman:** 从大约去年 12 月开始,是不是真的有什么特别的事情发生了?人们真正意识到了 Claude Code、Codex、OpenClaw 的力量。我是说,我不好意思承认——来这里的路上在机场,这是我第一次在公开场合这样做——我在"编程",对着我的笔记本电脑说话。我很尴尬,因为我假装在跟一个人类同事说话。我不确定对那种未来——每个人都在到处跟他们的 AI 说话——我作何感想,但这确实是把事情做好的非常高效的方式。
**Lex Fridman:** Is there something truly, as you know, something truly special happening from about December, where people have really woke up to the power of Claude Code of Codex, of OpenClaw. Um, I mean, I'm embarrassed to admit that on the way here in the airport, I've ... It's the first time I've done this in public. I was programming, quote unquote, by talking to my laptop. And I was embarrassed because I was pretending like I'm talking to a human colleague. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about the future where everybody- ... is walking around talking to their AI, but it's such an efficient way to get stuff done.
**Jensen Huang:** 更可能的是你的 AI 会一直打扰你。原因是它把事情做得太快了。它回来跟你说,"我搞定了。""你想让我接下来做什么?"那是我觉得大多数人没有意识到的部分——最多跟你发短信聊天的那个人,将是你的 claw 或 lobster。
**Jensen Huang:** And it's more likely that your AI is bothering you all the time. And the reason for that is because it's getting stuff done so fast. It's reporting back to you, "I got that done." "You know, what do you want me to do next?" You know, it... That's the part that I think- ... most people don't realize is they're The person who's gonna be chatting with them, texting them most, is their claws or lobster.
**Lex Fridman:** 多么不可思议的未来。我读到你把你很多成功归功于你比任何人都更努力工作、比任何人都能承受更多苦难的能力。我们可以列出很多涉及的东西。应对失败、我们讨论过的成本和工程问题。人的问题、不确定性、责任、疲惫、尴尬、你提到过的公司濒死时刻,还有压力。现在作为一家——各国经济体和国家都围绕它做战略规划、金融配置、AI 基础设施规划——的 CEO,你怎么应对这么大的压力?鉴于这么多国家和人民都依赖于你,什么给了你力量?
**Lex Fridman:** What an incredible future. Uh, I read that you attribute a lot of your success to your ability to work harder than anyone and withstand more suffering than anyone. So we can list many of the things that entails. I mean, dealing with failure, the cost and engineering problems we've talked about. The human problems, uncertainty, responsibility, exhaustion, embarrassment, the near-death company moments that you've mentioned, But also the pressure. Now, as the CEO of this company that economies and nations strategize around plan their, Financial allocations around, plan their AI infrastructure around, how do you deal with this much pressure? What gives you strength, given how many nations and peoples depend on you?
**Jensen Huang:** 我很清楚 NVIDIA 的成功对美国非常重要。我们创造了大量的税收。我们为国家建立了技术领导地位。技术领导地位对国家安全很重要。不只是国家安全的一个方面,是所有方面。当我们的国家更繁荣时,我们能在国内政策和社会福利方面做得更好。因为我们正在推动美国大量的再工业化,创造大量就业。我们在帮助转变我们在美国建造东西的方式——各种工厂、芯片、计算机,当然还有这些 AI 工厂。我完全意识到……我有一个很大的福气——主流投资者、教师、警察,不知怎么就投资了 NVIDIA——因为他们看了 Jim Cramer 就买了一些股票,现在成了百万富翁。我完全意识到这种情况。我意识到 NVIDIA 是一个非常大的生态系统合作伙伴网络的核心——上游和下游。所以我处理这些的方式就是我刚才做的。我推理——我们在做什么?这造成了什么?对其他人有什么积极或消极的影响——比如对供应链的巨大负担?问题是——那你要怎么做?几乎我感受到的所有事情,我都会把它分解、推理——"好的,情况是什么?什么变了?什么困难?我要怎么做?"我把问题分解,这些情况的分解让它变成可管理的事情。之后我唯一能做的就是——"你做了吗?你要么自己做了,要么让别人去做了?如果你推理出需要做某件事,但你没做也没让别人做,那就别哭了。"所以我对自己很严厉。但我也把事情分解开来,这样我不会恐慌。我能安心睡觉是因为我列出了需要做的事情,确保了所有可能给公司带来风险的、给合作伙伴带来风险的、给行业带来风险的事情——我都告诉了某个人。所有我觉得可能给任何人带来风险的事情,我都告诉了某个人。而且我告诉的那个人是能做点什么的人。所以我把它从心里卸下来了,或者我在做点什么。那之后,Lex,你还能做什么呢?
**Jensen Huang:** I'm conscious about the fact that, NVIDIA's success is very important to United States. We generate enormous amounts of tax revenues. We established technology leadership for our nation. Technology leadership i s important for national security. National security not just in one aspect of national security, all aspects of national security. When our country's more prosperous, we could do a better job with domestic policies and helping social benefits. Because we're generating so much re-industrialization in the United States, we're creating mountains of jobs. We're helping shift, how we, how we build things back to the United States in so many different plants, chips, computers, and of course, these AI factories. I'm completely aware that, that... And I have the benefit, and this is a real a real gift with mainstream investors, teachers, policemen who have somehow, for whatever reason, invested in NVIDIA or because they watched Jim Cramer bought some stock and now are millionaires. And I am completely aware of that circumstance. I'm aware of the circumstance that NVIDIA, is central to a very large network of ecosystem partners behind us and downstream from us. And so the way I deal with that is exactly what I just did. I reason about what is... what is it that we're doing? What is it causing? What's the impact that has on other people benefit, you know, positively or even, even through great burden, for example, to supply chain? And the question is, therefore, what are you gonna do about it? In almost everything that I feel, I break it down, I reason about, "Okay, "what's the circumstance? What has changed? What's hard? And what am I gonna do about it?" And I break it down, decompose the problem, and the decomposition of these circumstances turns it into manageable things that I can do. And the only thing after that I could do is, "Did you do it? Did you either do it or did you get somebody else to do it? And if you didn't do it, you reasoned that you need to do it, and you didn't do it, and you didn't get anybody else to do it, then stop crying about it." You know? And so- ... so I'm fairly Tough on myself. And, but I also break things down so that, so that I don't panic. I can go to sleep because I've made the list of things that needed to be done, and I've made sure that everything that could put our company in harm's way, could put my partners in harm's way, put our industry in harm's way, I've told somebody. Everything that I feel could put anybody in harm's way, I've told someone. And I've told that someone who could do something about it. And so I've gotten it off my chest or I'm doing something about it. And so after that, Lex, what else can you do?
**Lex Fridman:** 鉴于建设 NVIDIA 过程中那些疯狂的、极其密集的痛苦,你在心理上有过低谷时刻吗?
**Lex Fridman:** So given all the insane, intense amount of suffering on the journey of building up NVIDIA, have you hit low points psychologically?
**Jensen Huang:** 哦,是的。哦,是的。当然。一直都有。一直。
**Jensen Huang:** Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. All the time. All the time.
**Lex Fridman:** 然后——
**Lex Fridman:** And there—
**Jensen Huang:** 一直。
**Jensen Huang:** All the time.
**Lex Fridman:** ……你就是把问题分解成小块?
**Lex Fridman:** ... you just break down the problem into pieces?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。是的。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. Yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 看看你能做什么?
**Lex Fridman:** See what you could do about it?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。而且,Lex,其中一部分是遗忘。AI 学习中你知道最重要的特性之一就是系统性遗忘。你需要知道什么时候该忘记一些东西。你不能什么都记住。你不能什么都留着——你不想承载一切。我做的事情之一就是非常快速地分解问题、推理问题、分担负荷。当我说我告诉所有人,我本质上是在分担那个重负。尽快地。不管什么让我担忧的,告诉别人。别自己扛着。把问题分解成小块,让人们去做点什么。但其中一部分就是遗忘。很多时候就是你得对自己狠一点。来吧,别哭了。走起来。然后你就从床上起来了。然后另一部分是你被下一个闪闪发光的东西吸引——下一个未来、下一个机会、下一个"好的,那已经过去了。下一个是什么?"我觉得你会在伟大运动员身上看到这种情况。他们只关心下一分。上一分已经过去了。尴尬、挫折——然后因为我的工作很大一部分是公开做的。Lex,你的工作也有相当一部分是公开做的。所以我说了很多当时看起来合理的或者有趣的话——大部分只是因为当时对我来说很有趣。然后回头看,没那么有趣了,但是……
**Jensen Huang:** And, and part of, and, you know, Lex, part of it, part of it is forgetting. One of the most important attributes of AI learning, as you know, is, right? Systematic forgetting. You, you need to know when to forget some things. You can't memorize everything. You can't keep everything and, and, you know, you, you want to— you don't want to carry everything. One of the things that I do very quickly is decompose the problem, I reason about the problem, and I share the load with it. When I say I tell everybody, I'm essentially sharing that burden. As quickly as possible. Whatever worries me, tell somebody else. Don't just keep it. You know, don't freak them out. Decompose the problem into smaller parts and get people to, so, and, and inspire them to be able to go do something about it. But part of it is just, just forgetting. You know, like, a lot of it is you gotta be tough on yourself. You know, just come on, stop crying about it. Let's get going. You know? And, and then you get out of bed. And then the other part is, is you, you're attracted to the next shiny light, the next future, you know, the next opportunity, the next, "Okay, that's behind us. Let— what's next?" It's a lot, I think, you know, you watch this with great athletes. They, they just worry about the next point. The last point is behind them. The embarrassment, the, you know— the setback. You know, and, and then, and because I do so much of my job publicly, you know? Lex, you do a fair amount of your job publicly too. And so, so I do a lot of my job publicly. And so you know, I say a lot of things that, that seem sensible at the time or funny at the time, mostly it's just because it's funny to me at the time. And then, you know, you reflect on it, it's less funny, but, but...
**Lex Fridman:** 是的。相信我,我懂。但你基本上是让自己被未来的光所吸引。忘掉过去,就继续——
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah. No, trust me, I know. But you basically allow yourself to be pulled by the light of the future. Forget the past and just keep-
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right.
**Lex Fridman:** ——继续朝着那个方向努力。你说过那句挺有名的话——如果你知道建设 NVIDIA 有多难,比你预期的难了一百万倍,你就不会做了。
**Lex Fridman:** ... keep working towards that. I mean, you did say, there's this kind of famous thing you said that if you knew how hard it would be to build NVIDIA it turned out to be, what is it? A million times more hard than you anticipated that you wouldn't do it.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, right.
**Lex Fridman:** 但……当我听到这个,那可能对所有值得做的事情都是如此,对吧?
**Lex Fridman:** Um, but isn't... You know, when I hear that, that's probably true about everything worth doing, right?
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。顺便说一下,这就是我想解释的——有一种不可思议的超能力来自于拥有孩子般的心态。我经常对自己说,当我看着某件事情——几乎所有事情——我的第一个想法是,"这能有多难?"你让自己进入那个模式——这能有多难?没有人做过。看起来巨大无比。要花几千亿美元。要花很多时间……你就说,"是的,但这能有多难?"你得让自己进入那种心态。你不想实际上把所有事情都模拟一遍——所有挫折、所有考验和磨难、所有失望。你不想提前知道那些。你想带着它会很完美、很棒、非常有趣的心态进入一段新体验。然后当你在那里的时候,你需要有耐力,你需要有韧性,这样当挫折真的发生了——那些挫折会让你惊讶——失望会让你惊讶,尴尬会让你惊讶,羞辱会让你惊讶。你就是不能让它……现在你只需要打开另一个开关——忘掉它。继续前进,继续走。而且只要我对未来的假设——为什么未来会实现——那些假设和输入没有发生实质性变化,那我应该期待输出也不会变。所以我对未来的模拟输出仍然会发生。如果它仍然会发生,我仍然会去追求它。我相信它会……所以这是两三种人类特质的组合——能够以新鲜的心态进入一段体验的能力,忘记挫折的能力,相信自己的能力——相信你所相信的并坚持那个信念。但你在不断地重新评估。这三四五件事的组合我觉得对于韧性来说非常重要。而且……我很幸运,不管是什么人生经历造就了这些,我确实有这四五样东西。我永远好奇,永远在学习。我向每个人学习。因为我对一切都很谦虚,我总在想,"天哪,他们做得真好。他们做得真棒。"我在想他们在思考什么?他们怎么做到的?所以我在模拟每一个人。在很多方面,我在仿效我观察到的几乎每一个人。你对他们做的你所观察和尊重的一切抱有同理心。所以你在不断学习。
**Jensen Huang:** Exactly. That is, by the way, what I was trying to explain, is that there's a, there's a incredible superpower of being, being have a, the mind of a child. You know? And I say to myself oftentimes when I look at something, and almost, almost everything, My first thought is, "How hard can it be?" You know? And so you get yourself into that mode, how hard could it be? And, and nobody's ever done it. It looks gigantic. It's gonna cost hundreds of billions of dollars. It's gonna take, you know, all this... And you just go, "Yeah, but how hard could it be?" You know? How hard could it be? And so you gotta get yourself into that state of mind. You don't wanna, you don't wanna actually over simulate everything and all the setbacks and all the trials and tribulations and all the disappointments. You don't wanna simulate all that in advance. You don't wanna know that. You don't, you wanna go into a new experience thinking it's gonna be perfect, it's gonna be great, it's gonna be incredibly fun. And then while you're there, you know, you need to have, you need to have endurance, you need to have grit, so that when the setbacks actually happened, and those setbacks are gonna surprise you, the disappointments are gonna surprise you, you know, the embarrassments are gonna surprise you, the humiliations are gonna surprise you. You just can't let... Now you just gotta turn on the other bit, which is just forget about it. Move on, keep moving. And, and to the extent that, to the extent that my assumptions about the future and why the future is gonna manifest, so long as those assumptions and that input doesn't change or didn't change materially, then I should expect that the output won't change. And so my simulated output of the future is still gonna happen. And if it's still gonna happen, I'm still gonna go after it. I believe it's gonna, you know, and so there's a combination of two or three human characteristics, the ability to go into a, into an experience fresh-minded, the ability to forget the setbacks, the ability to believe in yourself, you know, to believe what you believe and stay, stay true to that belief. But you're constantly reevaluating. This combination of three, four, five things I think is, is really important for resilience. And, and... and, you know, I'm fortunate that, that whatever life experiences led to this, I've got kind of those four, five things. You know, I'm always curious, always learning. I'm always learning from everybody, you know? I'm always asking my... And because I'm humble about everything, I'm always thinking, "Gosh, they did that so nicely. They did that so wonderfully." You know, I wonder what they're thinking through. How do they... You know, so I'm simulating everybody. In a lot of ways, you know, I'm emulating almost everybody I watch, right? You're empathetic towards everything that they do that you're observing and respect. And, and so you're constantly learning and, you know.
**Lex Fridman:** 你现在是地球上最富有的人之一。地球上最成功的人之一。保持谦虚会不会更难了?你有没有感受到金钱、权力和名望的影响——让你更难在自己脑子里犯错?更难听取别人不同意你时的意见并从中学习?这些事情。
**Lex Fridman:** You're now one of the wealthiest people on Earth. One of the most successful humans on Earth. Is it harder to be humble and to be able to... Do you feel the effect of money and power and fame in making it harder for you to sort of be wrong in your own head? Enough to hear out an opinion of somebody else when they disagree with you and learn from them? Those kinds of things.
**Jensen Huang:** 出乎意料地,没有。我实际上会反过来说。因为我如此多的工作是公开做的,当我犯错时,几乎所有人都看到了。
**Jensen Huang:** Um, surprisingly, no. And I would, I would actually go the other way. Because I do so much of my work publicly, when I'm wrong, pretty much everybody sees it.
**Lex Fridman:** 你会被打回谦虚。说得对。
**Lex Fridman:** You get humbled. Fair enough.
**Jensen Huang:** 当我犯错、或者结果不是那样、或者——我在外面说的大部分事情我相当确定。原因是它会影响到别人,我想对此非常谨慎、非常周全。对于我在会议内部推理的东西,很多事情可能会有不同的结果。但这从来不会阻止我推理。我管理和领导的方式就是不断在人们面前推理。即使我跟你说话的时候,你也能看到我在推理。我想确保你理解我说的话不是因为我告诉你——而是因为我对我将要说的很谦虚。我把得出结论的步骤展示给你看。然后你可以决定你是否相信最终的结论。所以我整天都在会议里这样做。跟我所有的员工,我不断地推理——"让我告诉你我怎么看的。"然后我一步步推理。这给了每个人机会来插话说,"我不同意那个部分。"通过推理的方式让人们参与的好处是——他们不必不同意你的结论。他们可以不同意你的推理步骤。然后他们可以把我拉向不同的方向,然后我们可以一起往前推理。所以我们有点像是集体路径搜索的方法。真的很棒。
**Jensen Huang:** And when I'm wrong, when I'm wrong or it didn't turn out that way or you know, I mean, most of the things that, that I say outside I'm fairly certain about. And the reason for that is because, because it's gonna impact somebody else and I want to be quite concerned about that and quite, circumspect about that. For stuff that, that I'm reasoning about inside a meeting, you know a lot of things could turn out differently. And so, but it doesn't ever stop me from reasoning. The way that the way that I manage and lead, I, you know, I'm constantly reasoning in front of people. And even when I'm talking to you, you can kind of see me kind of reasoning through things. And I want to make sure that you understand what I'm saying not because I told you- ... because I'm so humble about what I'm about to tell you. I kind of show you the steps that I got there. And then you can decide whether you believe what I said in the end. And so I'm doing that all day long in meetings. With all of my employees, I'm constantly reasoning through, "Let me tell you what, how I see it." And then I reason through it. It gives everybody the opportunity to intercept and say, "I disagree with that part." The nice thing about reasoning through things and letting people interact with it is that they don't have to disagree with your outcome. They can disagree with your reasoning steps. And they could pull me in different directions, and then we can reason forward. And so we're kind of, you know, collective path searching method. And it's really fantastic.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,你有一种方式……当你解释东西的时候,我能感到你在现场推理,带着一种持续的开放心态——我能感觉到我可以引导你的思考。你在这么多年的成功和痛苦之后还能保持这一点,真的很美好。我觉得有时候痛苦会让人封闭。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, you have this way about you of ... When you're explaining stuff, I can feel you actually reasoning on the spot about it with a constant open-mindedness where you could ... I could feel like I could steer your thinking. And that's a, that's really beautiful that you've been able to maintain that after so many years of success, and pain. I think sometimes pain makes you close, closes you down a bit.
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯。是的。
**Jensen Huang:** Mm-hmm. Yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 而能保持——
**Lex Fridman:** And I think to maintain-
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。对尴尬的容忍度,我觉得是……
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. Tolerance for embarrassment, I think is...
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,那个……容忍度……我是说,那是真实的。是多年来不断让自己尴尬。即使在那些会议上,知道你身边有人,你宣布了一个想法,然后被证明那个想法是错的——能够承认并从中成长。这在人性层面上是非常困难的。
**Lex Fridman:** Yes, that's ... The tolerance ... I mean, that's a real thing. Is many years of embarrassing yourself. Even those meetings knowing that there's people around you where you declared one idea and it was shown that that idea was wrong- ... and be able to admit that and to grow from that. That's not, that's very difficult on a human level.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。你知道。他们最近才知道我第一份工作是刷厕所,所以。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. Well, you know. They knew that recently my first job was, you know, cleaning toilets, so.
**Lex Fridman:** 我很高兴你保持了那种 Denny's 的工作精神。那很美好。你从 Denny's 开始的整个旅程是很美好的。让我问你关于电子游戏的事。我是一个资深玩家。所以我得对 NVIDIA 多年来提供的不可思议的图形说声谢谢。
**Lex Fridman:** I'm glad you maintained that same spirit of Denny's the, the work. I mean, that, that was beautiful. Your whole journey from, starting from Denny's is a beautiful one. Let me ask you about video games. So I'm a big gaming fan. So I have to say thank you to NVIDIA for many years of incredible graphics.
**Jensen Huang:** 顺便说一下,GeForce 到今天仍然是我们的第一号营销策略。人们在十几岁的时候就了解了 NVIDIA。然后他们上大学已经知道 NVIDIA 是谁了——一开始只是玩使命召唤、堡垒之夜。然后后来他们开始用 CUDA,再后来用 NVIDIA 和 Blender、Dassault、Autodesk。
**Jensen Huang:** By the way, GeForce is our still, to this day- ... our number one marketing strategy. Right. People learn about NVIDIA while they're in their teenage years. And then they go to college and they know who NVIDIA is and then in beginning is just, you know, playing Call of Duty, you know? You know, Fortnite. And then later they're using CUDA, and then later they're using NVIDIA and, you know, Blender and Dassault and Autodesk.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的。我跟一个朋友提到我要跟你聊天。他说,"哦,他们做了很棒的游戏 GPU。"
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah. I mean, I should say I mentioned to a friend that I'm talking with you. He said, "Oh, they make great gaming GPUs."
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, exactly.
**Lex Fridman:** 就像——
**Lex Fridman:** It's like-
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Exactly.
**Lex Fridman:** 当然还有更多,但是,是啊是啊,人们真的很喜欢……这些硬件真的让很多人获得了很多快乐。把这些世界带到了生活中。关于 DLSS 5 有一些争议。你能给我解释一下这个事件吗?我猜玩家们在网上担心它会让游戏看起来像 AI 垃圾内容(AI slop)。你怎么看这个争议?
**Lex Fridman:** You know, there's more to it, but, yeah, yeah, people really love the ... It really brought a lot of joy to a lot of people. The, the, the hardware really brings these worlds to life. There was some controversy around this with DLSS 5. Can you explain to me the drama around this? Uh, I guess people, the gamers online were concerned that it makes games look like AI slop. Uh, what do you think of this drama?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。我觉得他们的观点是有道理的,我能理解他们的出发点,因为我自己也不喜欢 AI 垃圾内容。越来越多的 AI 生成内容看起来都差不多,而且都很漂亮。所以我能对他们的想法产生共情。但那不是 DLSS 5 要做的事情。我展示了好几个例子。DLSS 5 是 3D 条件引导的。它由真实结构数据引导。艺术家确定几何形状。我们对几何形状完全忠实,每一帧都保持。它以纹理、艺术家的艺术表达为条件。所以每一帧,它增强但不改变任何东西。现在关于增强——DLSS 5 还允许——因为系统是开放的——你可以训练自己的模型来决定效果,将来你甚至可以用提示词。比如"我想要卡通着色器。我想要它看起来像这种风格"——你可以给它一个示例。它会以那种风格生成,所有内容都符合艺术家的风格和意图。所有这些都是为艺术家服务的,让他们能创造更美的东西,但仍然保持他们想要的风格。我觉得他们得到的印象是——游戏按原样发布,然后我们去后处理。那不是 DLSS 要做的。DLSS 是与艺术家整合的,它是给艺术家提供 AI 工具、生成式 AI 的工具。他们可以选择不用它。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. Uh, I think their perspective makes sense and I could see where they're coming from, because I don't love AI slop myself. You know, all of the AI generated content increasingly, um, looks similar and they're all beautiful, and I can... So I can... I'm empathetic towards what they're thinking. That's just not what DLSS 5 is trying to do. I showed several examples of it. But DLSS 5 is 3D conditioned, 3D guided. It's ground truth structure data guided. And so the artist determined the geometry. We are completely truthful.... to the geometry maintains in every single frame. It's conditioned by the textures, the artistry of the artist. And so every single frame, it enhances but it doesn't change anything. Now, the question is, the question about enhancing, DLSS 5 also lets, because it's, the system is open, you could train your own models to determine, and you could even in the future prompt it. You know, I want it to be a toon shader. I want it to look like this kinda, you know, so you can give it even an example. And it would generate in the style of that, all consistent with the artistry, you know, the style, the intent of the artist. And so all of that is done for the artist, so that they can create something that is more beautiful, But still in the style that they want. I think that they got the impression that the games are gonna come out the way the games are shipped the way they do, and then we're gonna post-process it. That's not what DLSS is intended to do. DLSS is integrated with the artist, and so it's, it's about giving the artist the tool of AI, the tool of generative AI. They could decide not to use it, you know?
**Lex Fridman:** 我觉得人们对人脸非常敏感。我们现在生活在一个——我觉得是很美好的——时刻,人们对 AI 垃圾内容很敏感。这给我们自己照了一面镜子,帮助我们意识到我们追求的是不完美。我们追求的有时候不是完美的画面。它帮助我们理解我们在创造的世界中觉得什么是有吸引力的。这很美好。只要它是帮助我们创造那些世界的工具——
**Lex Fridman:** I think people are very sensitive to human faces. And we're now living in this moment, which I think is a beautiful one, which is people are sensitive to AI slop. It puts a mirror to ourselves to help us realize that what we seek is imperfections. What we seek is sometimes not perfect graphics. It helps us understand what we find compelling in the worlds we create. And that's beautiful. And as long as it's tools that help us create those worlds-
**Jensen Huang:** 是的,没错。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah, that's right
**Lex Fridman:** ——就很好。
**Lex Fridman:** ... it's wonderful.
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。又一个工具,他们想让生成模型生成的恰恰是照片级真实的反面。是的,它也能做到。这只是又一个工具。我觉得玩家们可能也会感激——过去几年我们给游戏开发者引入了皮肤着色器。很多游戏有了包含次表面散射的皮肤着色器,让皮肤看起来更像皮肤。所以行业里的游戏开发者一直在寻找越来越多的工具来表达他们的艺术。这只是又多了一个工具,他们来决定用什么。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right. Yet, yet another tool, and they want the generative, models to generate the opposite of photo real. Yeah, it'll do that too. And so it's just yet another tool. I think the the gamers might also appreciate that, that in the last couple of years, we introduced skin shaders to the game developers. And many of those games have skin shaders that include subsurface scattering that make skin look more skin-like. And so the industries, you know, game developers are looking for more and more and more tools to express their art. And so this is just yet more, one more tool, and they get to decide what to use.
**Lex Fridman:** 一个荒谬的问题。你认为有史以来最伟大或最有影响力的游戏是什么?也许从 NVIDIA 的角度来看?
**Lex Fridman:** Ridiculous question. What do you think is the greatest or most influential game ever made? Maybe from NVIDIA's perspective?
**Jensen Huang:** Doom。
**Jensen Huang:** Doom.
**Lex Fridman:** Doom,毫无疑问。那是 3D 的起点。
**Lex Fridman:** Doom, unquestionably. That was the start of the 3D.
**Jensen Huang:** 我会说 Doom,从文化影响和行业影响的交汇点来看——把 PC 变成游戏设备。那是一个非常重要的时刻。当然在它之前有飞行模拟公司。但它们没有 Doom 那样的流行度来推动行业把 PC 从办公自动化工具变成家庭和玩家的个人电脑。所以 Doom 在那方面真的很有影响力。从实际的游戏技术角度来看,我会说 VR 战士(Virtua Fighter)。我们和他们两家都是好朋友。
**Jensen Huang:** I would say Doom, from an art, the intersection of the cultural implication as well as the industry, turning a PC into a gaming device. That was a very important moment. Now, now of course, flight simulation companies were before it. And but they just didn't have the popularity that Doom did to have made the industry turn the PC from an office automation tool into a personal computer for families and gamers and things like that. And so Doom was really impactful there. From an actual game technology perspective, I would say Virtua Fighter. And so we're great friends with both of them, you know?
**Lex Fridman:** 然后更近期的游戏——赛博朋克 2077(Cyberpunk 2077),非常好的 GPU 加速图形。
**Lex Fridman:** And then there's games more recently, I mean, Cyberpunk 2077, really nice GPU-accelerated graphics. Like-
**Jensen Huang:** 完全光线追踪。
**Jensen Huang:** Fully ray traced.
**Lex Fridman:** 完全光线追踪。另外,我个人是天际(Skyrim)、上古卷轴(Elder Scrolls)的超级粉丝,它发布了很久了,但人们发布 mod——
**Lex Fridman:** Fully ray traced. Also, I like, I personally, I'm a huge fan of Skyrim, uh, Elder Scrolls, and the, you know, it's, it's been released a long, long time ago, but people release mods and-
**Jensen Huang:** 我们喜欢 mod。
**Jensen Huang:** We love mods
**Lex Fridman:** ——他们创造了这些不可思议的——它就像一个不同的游戏了。它让你意识到你可以用全新的方式重新体验你已经热爱的世界。所以——
**Lex Fridman:** ... they create these, these inc- I mean, it- ... it's like a different game and it just allows me to replay the game over and over and get i- It makes you realize that you can re- experience in a totally new way the world you already love. So-
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right
**Lex Fridman:** ——我一直这么做。我最喜欢的事情之一就是走遍天际。
**Lex Fridman:** ... I do that all the time. One of my favorite things is just walk across Skyrim.
**Jensen Huang:** 我们创建了一个叫 RTX Mod 的东西。是的,一个 modding 工具。它让社区可以把最新的技术注入到老游戏中。
**Jensen Huang:** Uh, we created this thing called RTX Mod. Yeah, it's a modding tool. It allows the community to inject the latest technology into an old game.
**Lex Fridman:** 当然,让一款好的电子游戏好的不只是画面——还有故事和角色发展。但——
**Lex Fridman:** Awesome. Of course, like what makes a great video game is not just graphics, it's also story and character development, but-
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right
**Lex Fridman:** ——精美的画面可以增加沉浸感。那种感觉就像你被传送到了另一个地方。
**Lex Fridman:** ... beautiful graphics can add to the immersion. The feeling like it's another place you're transported to.
**Lex Fridman:** 你说过——我觉得说得很准确——AGI 时间线的问题取决于你对 AGI 的定义。所以让我问你一些可能的时间线。可能是一个荒谬的 AGI 定义——但一个能基本上做你工作的 AI 系统。就是管理——不,是创办、发展和运营一家成功的科技公司——
**Lex Fridman:** Ah, what you said, I think accurately, that the AGI timeline question rests on your definition of AGI. So, let me ask you about possible timelines here. Let's, this ridiculous definition perhaps of what AGI is, but an AI system that's able to essentially do your job. So, run, no, start, grow, and run a successful technology company that's worth-
**Jensen Huang:** 一家好的还是一家一般的?
**Jensen Huang:** A good one or a one?
**Lex Fridman:** 不。必须市值超过 10 亿美元。所以你知道做到所有这些有多难。那我们离那个有多远?我们说的是 OpenClaw 能做所有不可思议的复杂事情——首先是创新、找客户、卖给他们、管理、建立一个有智能体和人类组成的团队——所有这些。这是 5 年、10 年、15 年、20 年以后?
**Lex Fridman:** No. It has to- It has to be worth more than a billion, more, more than a billion dollars. So, you know, you know how hard it is to do all those components. So, how far are we away from that? So, we're talking about OpenClaw that does all the incredibly complex stuff that are required to to, first of all, innovate, to find customers, to sell to them, to manage, to build a team of some agents, some humans, all that kind of stuff. Is this five, 10, 15, 20 years away?
**Jensen Huang:** 我觉得就是现在。我觉得我们已经实现了 AGI。
**Jensen Huang:** I think it's now. I think we've achieved AGI.
**Lex Fridman:** 你觉得一个 AI 系统能运营一家这样的公司?
**Lex Fridman:** Do you think you could have a company run by an AI system like this?
**Jensen Huang:** 有可能,原因是这样的。你说了 10 亿,但你没说永远。所以比如说……一个 Claw 创建了一个网络服务、某个有趣的小应用,然后突然间几十亿人以 50 美分的价格使用了它,然后它不久后就倒闭了,这并非不可能。我们在互联网时代看到过一大堆这类公司,其中大部分网站也不比 OpenClaw 今天能生成的更复杂。
**Jensen Huang:** Possible, and the reason for that is this. You said a billion, and you didn't say forever. And so for example, uh... It is not out of the question that a Claw was able to create a web service, some interesting little app that all of a sudden, you know, a few billion people used for 50 cents, and then it went out of business again shortly after. Now, we saw a whole bunch of those type of companies during the internet era, and most of those websites were not anything more sophisticated than what OpenClaw could generate today.
**Lex Fridman:** 有意思。获得病毒式传播并将其货币化。
**Lex Fridman:** Interesting. Achieve virality and monetize that virality.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。我只是不知道它是什么,但我当时也预测不了那些公司中的任何一家。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah. It's just that I don't know what it is, but I couldn't have predicted any of those companies at the time either, you know? And
**Lex Fridman:** 你这句话会让很多人兴奋。就像,什么意思?我可以启动一个智能体然后赚大钱?
**Lex Fridman:** - You're gonna get a lot of people excited with that statement. It's like, what do you mean? I can- I can just, uh - ... launch an agent and make a lot of money.
**Jensen Huang:** 嗯,顺便说一下,这正在发生。你去中国的时候你会看到一大堆人在教他们的——让他们的 Claw 去找工作、做事、赚钱。我也不会惊讶如果某种社交现象出现了——某个人创造了一个数字网红,超级可爱——或者某个社交应用,比如喂你的小电子宠物之类的——然后突然间就爆火了。很多人用了几个月然后就消退了。现在,十万个这样的智能体建出 NVIDIA 的可能性是零。然后有一件事我不会做,但我想确保我们都做的是——认识到人们真的在担心他们的工作。我只想提醒他们——你的工作的目的和你做工作用的任务和工具是相关的,但不是一回事。我做了 33 年的工作。我是全世界任期最长的科技 CEO,34 年了。我用来做工作的工具在过去 34 年里持续改变,有时候在两三年里变化得非常剧烈。我真正想确保每个人都听到的一个故事是——计算机科学家、AI 研究人员说的第一个要消失的工作是放射科医生。因为计算机视觉(CV)会达到超人水平,它确实做到了。计算机视觉在 2019 年、2020 年达到了超人水平。所以计算机视觉超人已经有很长时间了。预测是放射科医生会消失,因为看放射扫描片将成为过去式。AI 会做这个。嗯,他们的判断完全正确。计算机视觉完全是超人的。今天每一个放射学平台和软件包都由 AI 驱动。然而放射科医生的数量增长了。所以问题是为什么?而且我们现在全球缺放射科医生。所以,第一,那个危言耸听的警告走得太远了,它吓得人们不做这个对社会如此重要的职业了。这造成了伤害。那么,为什么它错了?原因是放射科医生的目的——目的是诊断疾病、帮助病人和医生诊断疾病。因为我们现在能更快地研究扫描片,你可以研究更多扫描片、更好地诊断、更快地处理住院患者、接诊更多人。医院赚更多钱。你有更多住院患者。你需要更多放射科医生。我是说,太明显了这一定会发生。NVIDIA 的软件工程师数量会增长,不会减少。原因是软件工程师的目的和软件工程师编码的任务是相关的,但不是一回事。我希望我的软件工程师解决问题。我不在乎他们写了多少行代码。但他们工作的目的没有改变。解决问题、团队合作、诊断问题、评估结果、寻找新问题、创新、连接线索。这些东西都不会消失。
**Jensen Huang:** Well, by the way, it's happening right now, right? You know that when, when you go to China you're gonna see, you're gonna see a whole bunch of people teaching their, getting their Claws to try to go out and look for jobs and, you know, do work, make money. And I'm not, I'm not actually... I wouldn't be surprised if some social thing happened or somebody created a, a digital influencer, super, super cute or some social application that, you know, feeds your little Tamagotchi or something like that, and, and it become an out of the blue an instant success. A lot of people use it for a couple of months and it kind of dies away. Now, the odds of, you know, 100,000 of those agents, Building NVIDIA is zero percent. And then the one part that I will, I won't do, And I, I want to make sure we all do, is to recognize that people are really worried about their jobs. And I just want to remind them that the purpose of your job and the tasks and tools that you use to do your job are related, not the same. I've been doing my job for 33 years. I'm the longest running tech CEO in the world, 34 years. And the tools that I've used to do my job have changed continuously in the last 34 years, and sometimes quite dramatically, you know, over the course of a couple, two, three years. And the one story that I really wanna make sure that everybody hears is the story that the first job that computer scientists said, AI researchers said was gonna go away was radiology. Because computer vision was going to achieve superhuman levels, and it did. CV... Computer vision was superhuman in 2019, 20, maybe a little bit later, 2020? Okay? And so it's been a long time since computer vision has been superhuman. And so the prediction was radiologists would go away because studying radiology scans was a thing of the past. AI will do that. Well, they were absolutely right. Computer vision is completely superhuman. Every radiology platform and package today is driven by AI, and yet the number of radiologists grew. And so the question is why? And we now have a shortage of radiologists in the world. And so, one, the alarmist warning went too far and it scared people from doing this profession that is so important to society. And so it did harm. Now, why was it wrong? The reason why is because the purpose of a radiologist, the purpose is to diagnose disease and help patients and doctors diagnose disease. And because we're able to study scans at so much faster now, you could study more scans, you could diagnose better, you could, you could inpatient faster, you can see people more. The hospitals are making more money. You have more patients in the hospital. You need more radiologists. I mean, the amazing thing is, it's so obvious this was gonna happen. The number of software engineers at NVIDIA is gonna grow, not decline. And the reason for that is because the purpose of a software engineer and the task of a software engineer coding are related, not the same. I wanted my software engineers to solve problems. I didn't care how many lines of code they wrote, you know? But their job, their purpose of their job didn't change. Solving problems, working as a team, diagnosing problems, evaluating the result, looking for new problems to solve, innovation, connecting dots. You know, none of that stuff is gonna go away.
**Lex Fridman:** 你觉得有没有可能——就拿编程来说。你觉得世界上程序员的数量可能会增加而不是减少吗?
**Lex Fridman:** Do you think it's possible that... Let's even take coding. Do you think the number of programmers in the world might increase, not decrease?
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。原因是这样的。编码的定义是什么?我认为今天编码的定义就是规格说明(specification),如果你想更具指导性的话,你甚至可以给它一个你想写的软件架构。那么问题是,有多少人能做到?描述一个规格说明让计算机去构建。多少人?我觉得我们刚从 3000 万增加到了大约 10 亿。所以未来每一个木匠都会是程序员——只不过木匠加上 AI 也同时变成了建筑师。他们刚刚极大地提升了能交付给客户的价值。他们的技艺大幅提升。我相信每一个会计也是你的财务分析师、也是你的财务顾问。所有这些职业都刚刚被提升了……如果我是一个木匠,看到了 AI,我会完全疯掉。你知道吗,我能给客户带来的服务——如果我是一个水管工,完全疯掉。
**Jensen Huang:** Yes. And the reason for that is this. What is the definition of coding? I believe it is... The definition of coding, as of today, is simply specifying, specification, and maybe if you want to be rather directive, you could even give it an architecture of the software that you wanted to write. So the question is, how many people could do that? Describe a specification for a computer to go... Telling the computer what to go build. How many people? I think we just went from 30 million to probably 1 billion. And so every carpenter in the future will be a coder, except a carpenter with AI is also an architect. They've just increased the value that they could deliver to the customer. Their, their artistry just elevated tremendously. I believe that every accountant is, you know, also your financial analyst, also your financial advisor. So, all of these professions have just been elevated.... and, and if I were a carpenter, I sees a, I see AI, I would just completely go berserk. You know, the services I can bring to my clients if I were a plumber, completely go berserk.
**Lex Fridman:** 而现在的程序员和软件工程师,我觉得他们处于理解如何用自然语言与智能体沟通从而设计最好的软件的前沿。
**Lex Fridman:** And the people that are currently programmers and software engineers, I think they're at the cutting edge of understanding intuitively how to communicate with the agents using natural language in order to design the best kind of software.
**Jensen Huang:** 没错,正是如此。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right, exactly.
**Lex Fridman:** 随着时间推移他们会趋同,但我觉得学习如何编程、学习什么是编程语言仍然有价值。旧式编程——编程语言的好的实践是什么、大型软件系统的设计原则是什么——
**Lex Fridman:** So over time they'll converge, but I think there's still value in getting, I think learning how to program, like learning what programming languages are. The old, the old kind of programming, what are good practices for programming languages, what are design principles for programming-
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right
**Lex Fridman:** ——仍然很重要。
**Lex Fridman:** ... Languages for large software systems?
**Jensen Huang:** 而且 Lex,原因是——你是在告诉观众——我认为规格说明的目标和技艺将取决于你要解决什么问题。当我在为公司制定战略和方向的时候,我会以一种足够具体、让人们大体理解方向并且可操作的水平来描述它。它足够具体让他们能采取行动,但我故意不完全指定——让 43000 个了不起的人能让它比我想象的更好。所以当我和工程师和人们合作时,我会想——我要解决什么问题?我和谁合作?规格说明的水平和架构定义的水平与此相关。每个人都得学会在编程的光谱中找到自己的位置。写规格说明就是编码。你可以选择非常精确,因为有一个非常特定的结果。你也可以选择更具探索性——所以你不完全指定,和 AI 来回互动,甚至拓展你自己的创造力边界。在光谱中的位置——这种技艺——就是编码的未来。
**Jensen Huang:** And the reason for that, Lex, and you know, as you're saying for the audience, I think the goal of, the goal of specification, the artistry of specification, the goal and the artistry of it, Is going to depend on what problem you're trying to solve. When I'm thinking, when I'm thinking about giving the company strategies and formulating corporate directions and things that we should do, I describe it at a level that is sufficiently specific that people generally understand the direction and it's actionable. It's specific enough that they can take action on it, but I under specify it on purpose, so that enable 43,000 amazing people to make it even better than I imagined. And so when I'm working with engineers and when I'm working with people, I think about who, what problem am I trying to solve? Who am I working with? And the level of specification, the level of architecture definition relates to that. And, and so everybody's going to have to learn how, where in the spectrum of coding they want to be. Writing a specification is coding. And so you might decide to be quite prescriptive because there's a very specific outcome you're looking for. You might decide that, you know, this is an area you want to be much more exploratory, and so you might under specify and enable you to go back and forth with the AI to even push your own boundaries of creativity. And so this artistry of where you are in the spectrum, this is the future of coding.
**Lex Fridman:** 但在编码之外,我觉得很多人——理所当然地——担心自己的工作,对工作有很多焦虑,尤其在白领行业。我不觉得我们中任何人知道该怎么办——每当自动化和新技术到来时总会有动荡。首先,我觉得我们都需要有同情心和责任感——去感受那些实际上正在遭受痛苦的个人和家庭的负担。我觉得像人工智能这样的变革性技术到来时,会有很多痛苦。我不知道该怎么应对那种痛苦。希望它能为那些相同的人创造更多的机会——随着工具的演进让他们更高效、更有趣。希望它在编程中做到的那样——我编程从来没有这么开心过。希望它能自动化无聊的部分,让创造性的部分——人类负责的部分——成为主角。但仍然会有很多痛苦和苦难。
**Lex Fridman:** But just to linger on it outside of coding, I think a lot of people, rightfully so, are worried about their jobs, have a lot of anxiety about their jobs, especially in the white-collar sector. I don't think any of us know what to do, With tumultuous times that always come when automations and new technology arrives. And I just... First of all, I think we all need to have compassion and the responsibility to feel sort of the burden of what the actual suffering feels like for individual people and families that lose their job. I think whenever you have transformative technology like that's coming with artificial intelligence, there's going to be a lot of pain, and I don't know what to do about that pain. Hopefully, it creates much more opportunities for those same people, for the same kind of job as the tooling evolves and makes them more productive and makes them more fun, hopefully, as it does in the programming. I've been having so much fun programming, I have to say. Like, I've never had this much fun. So hopefully it makes their job, automates the boring parts and makes the creative parts, the ones that the human beings are responsible for. But still there's going to be a lot of pain and suffering.
**Jensen Huang:** 所以我的第一个建议是……这就是我处理焦虑的方式。事实上我们刚才就说了。对未来的巨大焦虑、对压力的巨大焦虑、对不确定性的巨大焦虑——我首先把它分解开来。然后我告诉自己,"好的,有些事情你能做点什么,有些事情你做不了什么。但对于你能做的那些,让我们推理一下然后去做。"如果今天我们要雇一个新的大学毕业生,我有两个选择——一个完全不知道 AI 是什么,一个是使用 AI 的专家——我会雇那个 AI 专家。如果我有一个会计、一个市场人员——会用 AI 的那个——供应链、客服、销售人员、业务拓展、律师——我会雇那个会用 AI 的。所以我建议每一个大学生、每一个老师都应该鼓励学生去使用 AI。每一个大学生毕业时应该是 AI 专家。每个人——如果你是木匠、电工——去用 AI。看看它能做什么来改变你的工作、提升你自己。如果我是农民,我绝对会用 AI。如果我是药剂师,我会用 AI。我要看看它能怎样提升我的工作,让我成为那个革命这个行业的创新者。这是我首先会做的。然后我还会帮助他们理解……技术确实会造成错位并消除很多任务。因为它会自动化这些任务——如果你的工作就是那个任务本身,那你极有可能被颠覆。如果你的工作目的包含某些任务——那你必须去学习如何用 AI 来自动化那些任务。然后中间还有很大的光谱。
**Jensen Huang:** So my first recommendation before... And this is now how I deal with anxiety. In fact, we just talked about it earlier. Enormous anxiety about the future, enormous anxiety about the pressure, enormous anxiety about uncertainty, I first break it down, and then I'm gonna tell myself, "Okay, there are some things you can do something about, there's some things you can't do anything about. But for the stuff that you can do something about, let's reason about it and let's go do it." If we were to hire a new college graduate today, and I have a choice between two, one that have, that is no clue what AI is and one that is expert in using AI, I would hire the one who's expert in using AI. If I had an accountant, a marketing person, the one that is expert in using AI, supply chain, customer service, a salesperson, business development, a lawyer, I would hire the one who is expert in using AI. And so I would advise that every college student, every teacher should encourage their student to be, to go use AI. Every college student should graduate and be an expert in AI. And everybody, if you're a carpenter, if you're, you know, electrician, go use AI. Go see what it can do to transform your current job, elevate yourself. If I were a farmer, I would absolutely use AI. If I were a pharmacist, I would use AI. I wanna see how, what it could do to elevate my job so that I could be the innovator to revolutionize this industry myself. And so that would be the first thing that I would do. And then I would also, I would also help them... it is the case that the technology will dislocate and will eliminate many tasks if... And because it will automate it, if your job is the If your job is the task, then you're very highly going to be disrupted. If your job's purpose includes you, certain tasks- ... then it's vital that you go learn how to use AI to automate those tasks. And then there's the world of spectrum in between.
**Lex Fridman:** 顺便说一下,AI 的美妙之处——那些聊天机器人版本——是你可以把问题分解开。你有焦虑,你可以通过和它对话来分解问题。最近……这真的很不可思议——你可以多深入地思考你人生的问题——不只是像心理治疗那种。我是说非常实际的——"好,我担心我的……"字面意思——"我担心我的工作。我需要什么技能?我需要什么步骤?我怎么变得更擅长 AI?"你刚才说的所有东西,你可以字面上地问它,它会给你——一个逐条的计划。它就是一个很好的人生教练。这——
**Lex Fridman:** And by the way, the beautiful thing about AI, so the chatbot versions, is you can break down... You have anxiety and you can break down the problem by talking to it. Like, I've recently... It's really just incredible how much you can think through your life's problems, and through... And I don't mean, like, therapy problems. I mean, like, very practically, "Okay, I'm worried about my..." Literally, "I'm worried about my job. What are the skills? What are the steps I need to take? How do I get better at AI?" Everything you just said, you could literally ask and it's going to give you- ... a point-by-point plan. I mean, it's just a great life coach, period. This-
**Jensen Huang:** 我不知道怎么用 AI,然后 AI 说,"让我来教你。"
**Jensen Huang:** I don't know how to use AI, and the AI goes, "Well, let me show you."
**Lex Fridman:** 没错。这很"元",但确实很不可思议。人们绝对应该——
**Lex Fridman:** Exactly. It's very meta, but it's- It's kind of incredible. So people definitely should-
**Jensen Huang:** 你不能走到 Excel 面前说,"我不知道怎么用 Excel。"完了。
**Jensen Huang:** You can't walk up to Excel and say, "I don't know how to use Excel." You're done.
**Lex Fridman:** 我是说,这真的就是 AI 在我生活各方面做到的——消除了作为初学者第一次使用某样东西时的那种摩擦。我可以字面上问关于任何事情,"我需要采取的第一步是什么?"
**Lex Fridman:** I mean, that's really what AI has done for me in all walks of life, is that initial friction of being a beginner of using a thing for the first time. I can literally ask about any single thing, "What are the first steps I need to take?"
**Jensen Huang:** 没错。
**Jensen Huang:** That's right.
**Lex Fridman:** 它做的那种引导、消除世界提供的所有体验的摩擦……就像我线下跟你提到的——你说"我要去中国和台湾。"
**Lex Fridman:** And that handholding that it does, removing the friction of all the experiences that the world offers is... You know, like I mentioned to you offline, you mentioned, "I'm going to China and Taiwan."
**Jensen Huang:** 太棒了。
**Jensen Huang:** So awesome.
**Lex Fridman:** 就问,"我去哪里——怎么——"
**Lex Fridman:** Just ask, "Where do I-"
**Jensen Huang:** 太期待了。
**Jensen Huang:** So excited for you.
**Lex Fridman:** "我去哪里?我做什么?"所有这些问题——马上就有答案,太美好了。
**Lex Fridman:** "Where do I—what do—" "You know, where do I go? How do I..." All of those questions— ... immediately answered, and it's beautiful.
**Jensen Huang:** 你到了台湾的时候,就问 AI——"Jensen 在台湾最喜欢的餐厅是哪些?"它实际上——
**Jensen Huang:** Well, when you, when you go to Taiwan, just ask AI- ... "What are Jensen's favorite restaurants in Taiwan?" And it'll actually-
**Lex Fridman:** 你不知道吗?
**Lex Fridman:** You don't know?
**Jensen Huang:** 哦,知道。
**Jensen Huang:** Oh, yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 它准确吗?好吧。
**Lex Fridman:** Is it accurate? Okay.
**Jensen Huang:** 是的。
**Jensen Huang:** Yeah.
**Lex Fridman:** 好的。
**Lex Fridman:** All right.
**Jensen Huang:** 台湾到处都是。
**Jensen Huang:** It's all over Taiwan.
**Lex Fridman:** 你在那边是摇滚巨星。就像我们线下提到的,也许我们的路会在计算领域交汇——那真的太好了。
**Lex Fridman:** Well, you're a rockstar over there. And like we also mentioned offline, maybe our paths will cross, which would be really wonderful in computing.
**Jensen Huang:** COMPUTEX。NVIDIA GTC 台湾。
**Jensen Huang:** COMPUTEX. NVIDIA GTC Taiwan.
**Lex Fridman:** 你觉得人性中、人类意识中有什么东西是从根本上非计算性的吗?也许是芯片——无论多强大——永远无法复制的?
**Lex Fridman:** Uh, do you think there's some things about human nature, about human consciousness that is fundamentally non-computational? Maybe something a chip, no matter how powerful, can never replicate?
**Jensen Huang:** 我不知道芯片会不会紧张。那就是——当然,导致焦虑或紧张或其他情绪的条件。我相信 AI 将能够识别和理解这些。但我不认为我的芯片会感受到那些。因此……那种焦虑、那种感觉、那种兴奋——所有这些感觉如何表现在人类的表现中。比如极其惊人的人类表现、运动表现——普通的或者低于普通的。完全相同的情境对不同的人产生不同的结果、不同的表现——这整个人类表现的光谱。我不认为我们正在构建的任何东西会暗示——两台不同的计算机在完全相同的上下文中——当然它们会产生统计上不同的结果——但那不是因为它"感觉"不同。
**Jensen Huang:** I don't know if the chip will ever get nervous. And that's the, you know, of course, the conditions by which that causes anxiety or nervousness or whatever emotion. Um, I believe that AI will be able to recognize those and understand those. I don't think my chips will feel those. And therefore, the... How that anxiety, how that feeling, how that excitement, how that, how that, you know... All of those feelings manifest in human performance. For example, extremely amazing human performance, athletic performance, you know, average or lesser than average. That entire spectrum of human performance that comes out of exactly the same circumstances for different people, manifesting a different outcome, manifesting a different performance. I don't think there's anything about anything that we're building that would suggest that two different computers being presented with all of exactly the same context would perfo- Of course, it would produce statistically different outcomes, but it's not because it felt different.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的,主观的……天哪,我们人类感受到的那种主观体验确实有一些真正特别的东西。就像我跟你提到的——跟你说话我挺紧张的。那种希望、恐惧、焦虑——以及生命本身、生命的丰富性。一切多么令人惊叹。我们多么深刻地坠入爱河,我们的心碎得多么彻底,我们多么害怕死亡,当我们所爱的人离去时我们感受到多少痛苦。所有这些——整个事情。我知道很难想象 AI 能……一个计算设备能做到这些。但关于这一切还有那么多未解之谜等待我们去揭开,我保持对惊喜的开放。过去几个月和几年我已经被惊讶了很多次。缩放可以在智能领域创造一些不可思议的奇迹。观察这些真的很精彩,所以我对惊喜保持开放。
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah, the subjective... Boy, there's something truly special about the subjective experience that we humans feel. Like I mentioned to you, I was pretty nervous talking to you. Like I mentioned to you, that, the hope, the fear, the anxiety, and just life itself, the richness of life. How amazing everything is. How deeply we fall in love, how deeply our hearts get broken, how afraid we are of death and how much pain we feel when our loved ones pass away. All of that, the whole thing. I know it's very hard to- ... think AI being able to... A computational device being able to do that. But there's so many mysteries about this whole thing that we're yet to uncover, that I am open to be surprised. I've been surprised a lot over the past- ... few months and few years. Scaling can create some incredible miracles in the space of intelligence. Has been truly marvelous to watch, so I'm open to surprise.
**Jensen Huang:** 而且真正重要的是要分解什么是智能。你知道,"智能"这个词我们一直在用,它不是一个神秘的词。智能有含义。它是一个系统……是我们做的事情——包括感知、理解、推理和规划能力。那个循环,根本上就是智能。智能不是一个与人性完全等同的词。我觉得把这两者分开非常重要。我们有两个词来表达。我不会过度幻想,也不会过度浪漫化智能。智能是……你听我说过——我其实认为智能是一种商品。我被聪明人包围着。我被在他们各自领域比我更聪明的人包围着。但我在那个圈子里有一个角色。这其实挺有意思的。他们比我受教育程度高。他们上了比我更好的学校。他们在各自领域比我都深入。所有 60 个人。他们对我来说都是超人。但不知怎么的,我坐在中间协调他们 60 个人。那你得问自己——一个洗碗工凭什么能坐在超人中间?这有道理吗?但这就是我的观点。我的观点是——智能是一种功能性的东西。而人性不是用功能来定义的。它是一个大得多的词。我们的人生经历、我们对痛苦的忍耐力、我们的决心——这些和智能是不同的词。所以我想帮助观众理解的——如果我能给他们一件东西的话——是"智能"这个词随着时间被我们提升到了一个非常高的形式。
**Jensen Huang:** And it's just really important to break down what is intelligence. You know, the word, that word we use all the time, it's not a mysterious word. Intelligence has a meaning, you know? And it's a system that... You know, it's something that we do that includes perception and understanding and reasoning and the ability to do plan. And, you know, that, that loop, that loop, is the... Fundamentally what intelligence is. Intelligence is not one word that is exactly equal to humanity. And that's, I think it's really important to separate the two. We have two words for that. I'm not... I don't over-fantasize about, and I don't over-romanticize about intelligence. Intelligence is... And people have heard me say it before, I actually think intelligence is a commodity. I'm surrounded by intelligent people. And I'm surrounded by intelligent people more intelligent than I am in each one of the spaces that they're in. And yet, I have a role in that circle. It's actually kind of interesting. They're more educated than I am. They went to better schools than I did. They're deeper than, in any of the fields that they're in. All of 'em. I have 60 of 'em. They're all superhuman to me. And somehow, I'm sitting in the middle orchestrating all 60 of 'em. And so you gotta ask yourself... Uh, what is, what is it about a dishwasher that allows that dishwasher to sit in the middle of superhumans? Does that make sense? And so, but that's my point. My point is intelligence is a functional thing. Humanity is not a, not specified functionally. It's a much, much bigger word. And, and our life experience, our tolerance for pain, our determination, those are, those are different words than intelligence. And so the thing that I wanna help the audience understand, if I could give them one thing, is, is intelligence is a word that we've elevated to a very high form over time.
**Lex Fridman:** 我们真正应该提升的词是"人性"。
**Lex Fridman:** The, the word we should really elevate is humanity.
**Jensen Huang:** 品格、人性。
**Jensen Huang:** Character, humanity.
**Lex Fridman:** 所有这些东西。
**Lex Fridman:** All those things.
**Jensen Huang:** 同情心、慷慨——你刚才说的所有那些。我相信那些才是超能力。而智能将会被商品化。因为我们讲过,最重要的是你的教育。最……即使他们说最重要的是教育——当你上学时,你获得的不只是知识。但不幸的是,我们的社会把一切放进了一个词里,而人生不只是一个词。我只是在告诉你——我的人生表明,在智商曲线上低于身边每个人,并不改变我是最成功的这个事实。所以我觉得这是——我希望能激励每一个人——不要让智能的民主化、智能的商品化给你带来焦虑。你应该受到鼓舞。
**Jensen Huang:** All of those things. Compassion, generosity, all of the things that you said just now, I believe those are superhuman powers. And that now intelligence is gonna be commoditized. Because we've spoken about it, the most important thing is your education. The most... Now, even, even when they said the most important thing is your education, when you went to school, there's more than just knowledge that you gained. And so, but unfortunately, our society has put everything into one single word, and life is more than one word. And I'm just telling you, my life would suggest that being lower on the intelligence curve than everybody around me doesn't change the fact I'm the most successful. And so, and I think, I think that kind of is I'm trying to hopefully inspire everybody else that don't let this democratization of intelligence, this commoditization of intelligence, you know, cause you anxiety. You should be inspired by that.
**Lex Fridman:** 是的。我觉得 AI 会帮助我们更多地赞美人类。当然人性和人类优先。我觉得让这个世界了不起的是人类——永远都是——而 AI 是这个不可思议的工具让我们——
**Lex Fridman:** Yeah. I think AI will help us celebrate humans more. And certainly humanity and human first, and I, I think what makes this world incredible is humans forever will be so, and just AI is this incredible tool that makes us-
**Jensen Huang:** 完全正确。
**Jensen Huang:** That's exactly right.
**Lex Fridman:** ——人类更强大。
**Lex Fridman:** ... humans more powerful.
**Jensen Huang:** 完全正确。
**Jensen Huang:** That's exactly right.
**Lex Fridman:** NVIDIA 的成功和我提到的数百万人的生活都依赖于你。但你只是一个人类,就像我们提到的——一个凡人。你会想到自己的死亡吗?你害怕死亡吗?
**Lex Fridman:** Uh, so much of the success of NVIDIA and the lives of millions of people that I mentioned depend on you. But you're just one human, like we mentioned, a mortal like all of us. Do you think about your mortality? Are you afraid of death?
**Jensen Huang:** 我真的不想死。我有美好的生活。我有美好的家庭。我有非常重要的工作。这不是一生一次的体验——"一生一次的体验"暗示着很多人都经历过,只是不是同一个人。这是人类历史上独一无二的体验——我正在经历的。NVIDIA 是历史上最重要的科技公司之一。我们在做非常重要的工作。我非常认真地对待它。然后当然有一些实际的事情——比如我们怎么考虑继任规划?我有句名言——我不信继任规划。
**Jensen Huang:** I really don't wanna die. Um, I have a great life. I have a great family. Uh, I have really important work. Uh, this is, this is not a once in a, once in a lifetime experience suggests that it has been experienced by many people, just not one person. This is a once in a humanity experience, what I'm going through. Uh, NVIDIA is one of the most consequential technology companies in history. We're doing very important work. I take it very seriously. Um, And so some of the, some of the things that, that of course are, are practical things, like how do we think about succession planning? And, I'm famous in saying that I don't believe in succession planning.
**Lex Fridman:** 天哪。
**Lex Fridman:** Man.
**Jensen Huang:** 原因——原因不是因为我是不朽的。原因是——如果你担心继任规划,如果你焦虑,那你应该怎么做?然后你把它完全分解开来。如果你关心公司在你之后的未来,你今天最应该做的事情是——尽可能频繁和持续地传递知识、信息、洞察、技能、经验。这就是为什么我不断在团队面前推理一切。每一次会议都是一次推理会议。我在公司内外的每一刻都是在尽可能快地向人们传递知识。没有任何东西在我桌上停留超过一瞬间。我在传递那些信息、那些知识——天哪,这个太酷了——我还没完全学完呢,我就已经在指给别人看了。"赶紧看这个。这个太酷了。你会想要了解这个的。"所以我不断地传递知识、赋能他人、提升身边每个人的能力。我追求的结果、我希望的——是我在工作中去世。希望是突然的,没有长时间的痛苦。
**Jensen Huang:** And the reason, the reason for that, the reason for that isn't because I'm immortal. The reason for that is because if you're worried about succession planning, if you're worried, all that anxiety of succession planning, then what should you do about it? Then you break it all the way back down. The most important thing you should do today, if you care about the future of your company, post you, is to pass on knowledge, information, insight, skills, experience as often and continuously as you can, which is the reason why I continuously reason about everything in front of my team. Every single meeting is about a reasoning meeting. Every moment I spend inside a company, outside a company is about passing on knowledge to people as fast as I can. Nothing I learn ever sits on my desk longer than, you know, a fraction of a second. I'm passing that information, that knowl- oh my gosh, this is cool. Before I even finish learning all of it myself, I'm already pointing it to somebody else. "Get on this. This is so cool. You're gonna wanna, you're gonna wanna learn this." And so I'm constantly passing knowledge, empowering people, elevating the capability of everybody around me, so that the outcome that I, that I seek, that I hope for, is that I die on the job, you know? And, and hopefully I die on the job instantaneously, you know? And there's no long periods of suffering, you know? It's, uh —
**Lex Fridman:** 嗯,作为粉丝的角度来看——鉴于你对文明的巨大正面影响——当然我希望你继续下去。但看着 NVIDIA 在做什么也是一种乐趣。那种创新速度。而且我是工程的超级粉丝。NVIDIA 持续在做那么多不可思议的工程。看着就是一种享受。这是对人类的庆祝、对伟大建设者的庆祝、对伟大工程的庆祝。所以它代表着一些特别的东西。我希望你和 NVIDIA 继续前进。当你展望未来——思考未来——看向 10 年、20 年、50 年、100 年后——什么给你希望?关于这一切——关于人类——关于人类的未来?
**Lex Fridman:** Well, from a fan perspective given your, your extremely, um, your enormous positive impact on civilization, of course, I hope you keep going. But also it's just fun to watch what NVIDIA is doing, you know. It's just the rate of innovation. And I'm a huge fan of engineering. There's so much incredible engineering being continuously being done by NVIDIA. It's just fun to watch. It's a celebration of humanity, a celebration of great builders, a celebration of great engineering. So, it represents something special. So I hope you and NVIDIA keep going. What gives you hope about this whole thing we got going on, about humanity, about the future of humanity? When you look out, when you think about the future quite a bit, when you look out 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now, what gives you hope?
**Jensen Huang:** 我一直对人类的善良、慷慨、同情心、人类的能力有巨大的信心。我一直对此极其自信。有时候超出应有的程度。有时候我会被占便宜,但这从来不会让我停止这样做。我永远都是从——人们想做好事开始。人们想要帮助他人。绝大多数时候,我被证明是对的。不断地被证明是对的。而且经常超出我的期望。所以我对人类的能力有完全的信心。给我不可思议的希望的是——当我看到现在什么是可能的,当我推断——基于我们正在做的事情——什么极有可能发生。有那么多我们想解决的事情。那么多问题想解决。那么多东西想建造。那么多好事想做——现在都在我们的触及范围之内,在我有生之年的触及范围之内。你怎么可能不对此充满浪漫呢?
**Jensen Huang:** I've always had a great confidence in the kindness, uh, the generosity, uh... the compassion, the human capacity. I've always been extremely confident of that. Sometimes more so than I should. And, and I get taken advantage of, but it doesn't, it doesn't ever cause me not to. I start with, always, That people want to do good. People want to, um help others. And, vastly, I am proven right. Constantly proven right. And, and often it exceeds my expectations. And, and so I have complete confidence in the human capacity. I think the, the thing that, the things that give me incredible hope, Is what I see as, as I extrapolate, as I, what I see now is possible, and as I extrapolate, Based on the things that we're doing, what will very likely happen. And, and that there's so many things that we wanna solve. There's so many problems we wanna solve. There's so many things that we wanna build. There's so many good things that we wanna do that are now within our reach, and within the reach of my, my lifetime. You just can't possibly not be romantic about that. You know what I'm saying?
**Lex Fridman:** 多么激动人心的时代。真正地——
**Lex Fridman:** What an exciting time to be alive. Like, truly-
**Jensen Huang:** 你怎么能不——
**Jensen Huang:** How can-
**Lex Fridman:** ——真正如此。
**Lex Fridman:** ... truly so.
**Jensen Huang:** 你怎么能不对此充满浪漫?事实是——期待疾病的终结是合理的。期待污染将被大幅减少是合理的。期待以光速旅行实际上在我们的未来之中也是合理的。不是长距离,但是短距离。有人问我怎么做。嗯,首先,很快我就会把一个人形机器人放上飞船——那会是我的人形机器人——我们会尽快把它送出去,它会在飞行途中不断改进和增强。然后到时候,我的所有意识——我的人生已经有很多被上传到了互联网。把我所有的收件箱、我做过的一切、说过的一切——收集起来成为我的 AI。然后到时候,我们就以光速发送它,追上我的机器人。
**Jensen Huang:** How can you not be romantic about, about that? The, the fact that, that there is a, there, it's a reasonable thing to expect the end of disease. It's a reasonable thing to expect. It's a reasonable thing to expect that pollution will be drastically reduced. It's a reasonable thing to expect that traveling at the speed of light is actually in our future. And then, you know, not, not for long distances, but short distances. You know, and people ask me how. Well, first of all, very soon, I'm gonna put a humanoid on a spaceship, and it's gonna be, you know, my humanoid, and, and we're gonna send it out as soon, you know, as soon as possible, and it's gonna keep improving and enhancing along the flight. And then when it's time, all of the, all of my consciousness has already been, you know so much of my life has been uploaded in the internet. Take all my inbox, take everything that I've done, everything I've said. You know, it's been collected and becoming my AI. And I'm just, you know, when the time comes, you know, we'll just send that at the speed of light, catch up with my robot.
**Lex Fridman:** 哦,这太精彩了。但对我来说,那更像是应用层面的。对我来说,从好奇心最大化的角度——那些谜题。有那么多令人着迷的科学问题——
**Lex Fridman:** Oh, that's brilliant. I mean, but for me, that's sorta application-focused. But also, for me, the curiosity- ... Maxing perspective, I just, all of those mysteries. There's so much- ... fascinating scientific questions there.
**Jensen Huang:** 理解生物机器就在眼前了。不是 10 年。可能是 5 年。
**Jensen Huang:** Understanding the biological machine is right around the corner. It's, it's not 10 years. It's five years probably.
**Lex Fridman:** 然后你的生物机器——人类大脑——以及打开理论物理的大门。太令人兴奋了。
**Lex Fridman:** And then your biological machine, the human mind and cracking physics, theoretical physics open. It's so exciting.
**Jensen Huang:** 解释意识——那个会很了不起。
**Jensen Huang:** Explaining consciousness, that one would be awesome.
**Lex Fridman:** 而且全都在我们的触及范围之内。Jensen,非常感谢你这些年来所做的一切。感谢你为世界所做的一切。感谢你做你自己。我能感觉到你是一个很好的人,我祝你今年取得不可思议的成功。我迫不及待——作为粉丝——想看你接下来做什么。希望我能在台湾见到你。非常感谢你今天的对话。
**Lex Fridman:** And it's all within our reach. Jensen, thank you so much for everything you've done over the years. Thank you for everything you're doing for the world. Thank you for being who you are. I can tell you're a great human being, and I wish you incredible success this year. I can't wait. As a fan, I can't wait to see what you do next, and hopefully I'll see you in Taiwan and thank you so much for talking today.
**Jensen Huang:** 谢谢你,Lex。我玩得很开心。还有,如果我可以再说一件事。
**Jensen Huang:** Thank you, Lex. I had a great time. And also, if I could just say one more thing.
**Lex Fridman:** 请说。
**Lex Fridman:** Yes.
**Jensen Huang:** 感谢你做的所有采访——那种深度、那种尊重、你做的研究——为我们所有人展示了你这些年来采访过的了不起的人。我非常享受。作为一个创新者,创造了这种长形式、不可思议的——却又引人入胜的内容。总之,感谢你所做的一切。
**Jensen Huang:** And thank you for all the interviews that you do, the depth, the respect that you go through with and the research that you do to reveal, you know, for all of us, The amazing people that you've interviewed over the years. I've enjoyed I've enjoyed them immensely. And as an innovator, to have created this long form, unbelievable, and yet, you know, it's just captivating. So anyways, thank you for everything you do.
**Lex Fridman:** 这对我意义重大。谢谢你,Jensen。
**Lex Fridman:** It means the world. Thank you, Jensen.
**Jensen Huang:** 谢谢你,Lex。
**Jensen Huang:** Thank you, Lex.
**Lex Fridman:** 感谢大家收听这次与 Jensen Huang 的对话。想要支持本播客,请查看描述中的赞助商。
**Lex Fridman:** Thank you for listening to this conversation with Jensen Huang. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Alan Kay. "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.