86 min 2025-12
How Anthropic's product team moves faster than anyone else | Cat Wu (Head of Product, Claude Code)
概要
Anthropic产品负责人Cat Wu分享团队如何将发布周期从6个月压缩到1天，PM/工程/设计角色融合趋势，以及Claude Code产品矩阵的演进方向
AI 时代 PM 必须以天为单位迭代，6 个月路线图已死
核心要点：PM 的核心能力已从"协调多季度路线图"转变为"缩短想法到用户手中的时间"；Anthropic 的产品发布周期从 6 个月压缩到 1 天，团队中的任何工程师都被赋权在一周甚至一天内将想法变为上线产品。
- Cat Wu 面试了数百位 PM 候选人，发现大多数人仍然用传统方式思考 PM 角色——强调多季度路线图对齐、跨团队协调。她认为这在 AI 时代已完全过时："AI 之前，技术变化慢，你可以在 6-12 个月的时间线上规划。现在模型能力每隔几个月就有大幅跃升，产品周期必须同步加速。"
- Anthropic 的发布节奏已经到了"有人做了一张日历，发现几乎每天都有重大功能或产品上线"的程度。Lenny 评价这是他见过的最快发布速度。
- 当被问到是否因为内部使用了 Mythos 模型才能如此快速时，Cat Wu 坦承 Mythos 确实强大，"但这不能解释大部分加速"。核心是流程和团队期望：低流程、消除一切发布障碍、赋权每个人独立交付。
- PM 仍然需要做的关键工作：设定清晰目标（"我们的核心用户是专业开发者，要解决的问题是权限弹窗疲劳"）、定义关键用例、设立可重复的发布流程。PRD 不是每个功能都需要，但对于特别模糊或需要重度基础设施的项目仍然有价值。
- 团队每周做全员指标通报（metrics readout），确保每个人都深刻理解业务的所有维度——目标、趋势、驱动因素。配合团队原则文档（核心用户是谁、为什么、愿意做什么 trade-off），让所有人能自主决策而不被 PM 或其他利益相关方 block。
"The timelines for a lot of our product features have gone down from 6 months to one month and sometimes to one week or even one day." —— Cat Wu
Anthropic 极速发布的三个组织秘密
核心要点：Anthropic 的发布速度不是靠加班或英雄主义，而是靠三个结构性机制：research preview 降低发布承诺、工程师端到端独立交付、跨职能流程实现次日公告。
- Research Preview 机制：几乎所有新功能先以 research preview 上线，明确告知用户"这是早期产品、只是一个想法、可能不会永久支持"。这大幅降低了发布的心理门槛和组织承诺——一两周内就能推出新功能获取反馈。
- 工程师端到端交付：团队中许多工程师可以完全独立地从"在 Twitter 上看到用户反馈"到"周末前上线解决方案"，几乎不需要产品介入。Cat Wu 认为这是最高效的交付模式。最近上线的
/powerup功能就是一个例子——团队最初坚持"产品应该直觉到不需要教程"，但最终承认功能太多（超过 100 个），用户需要一个内置引导来了解"最重要的 10 个功能是什么"。 - 跨职能次日公告流程：工程师觉得功能就绪并在内部 dogfood 后，发到 evergreen launch room；文档负责人 Sarah、PMM 负责人 Alex、DevRel 的 Tar 和 Lydia 立即跟进，次日即可发出公告。PM 的角色是搭建这个流程框架，而不是每次都亲自协调。
- 这种速度的代价是产品一致性。Cat Wu 坦承，由于功能发布太快、有时不同功能之间存在重叠（"因为内部有两种我们都喜欢的形态，想让外部用户告诉我们哪个更好"），新用户可能不知道完成某个任务的最佳路径。用户也会感到需要每天刷 Twitter 才能跟上最新动态。
"We want to remove every single barrier to shipping things. We want to make sure every single person on the team feels empowered to take their idea from just an idea to out in the world in less than a week, sometimes even in a day." —— Cat Wu
PM/工程师/设计师角色融合，产品品味成唯一硬门槛
核心要点：三种角色的边界正在模糊化——PM 写代码、工程师做 PM 工作、设计师落地代码。Cat Wu 认为所有这些角色最终都收敛到同一个核心能力："决定写什么"，即产品品味。
- "代码变得极其廉价之后，更有价值的是决定写什么——什么是正确的 UX？什么是最令人愉悦的体验？我们收到数万个 GitHub issue 请求各种功能，需要大量品味来判断哪些值得做、怎样做才对。"
- Claude Code 团队几乎所有 PM 都有工程背景或在团队里写过代码；设计师也都曾是前端工程师。Cat Wu 自己在加入 Anthropic 前做了多年工程师，短暂做过 VC。
- 工程背景目前特别有价值的原因：能判断"某件事应该有多难"，从而影响优先级决策——如果一个功能很简单，与其讨论不如花一小时直接做；如果很复杂，提前知道成本有助于取舍。但 Cat Wu 特别指出这个优势"可能只持续几个月"，因为模型编程能力每隔几个月就有大幅跃升，会改变什么技能更有价值。
- 当被问到角色融合的代价时，Cat Wu 坦诚回答：牺牲了产品一致性。传统模式下会仔细规划整个产品套件中每个产品的关系、用例和集成方式；现在速度优先，有时功能之间会重叠。
- Cat Wu 提到了 Amole（另一位最近上 Lenny 播客的嘉宾）的观点：因为工程师产出太快，PM 和设计师反而被挤压——跟不上每天都在上线的功能。他因此认为需要更多 PM。Cat Wu 的回应是：与其分别增加 PM 和工程师，不如招有强产品品味的工程师，减少交付开销。
"As code becomes much cheaper to write, the thing that becomes more valuable is deciding what to write." —— Cat Wu
Claude Code / Desktop / Co-work 三产品矩阵
核心要点：产出是代码就用 Claude Code 或 Desktop，产出不是代码就用 Co-work。三者形成互补矩阵，覆盖从终端到移动端、从编码到非编码的全部工作场景。
- Claude Code（CLI）：最强大的产品面，新功能最先落地。适合一次性编码任务或同时处理少量任务。Cat Wu 自己在"只是想启动一个或几个编码任务"时首选 CLI。
- Desktop：两大优势——①前端开发体验：内置 preview 面板，可以实时看到正在构建的 web 应用；②对非技术用户更友好，终端的弹窗和命令行界面对非技术人员"很吓人"。Desktop 同时是一个控制面板，可以看到 CLI 会话、Desktop 会话、Web/Mobile 会话的全貌。
- 移动端（Web/Mobile）：解决"出门在外无法访问笔记本电脑"的问题。Cat Wu 提到她见过无数人在户外时"抱着笔记本电脑、手机热点连接"的窘况——因为 agent 正在工作不能断。移动端让用户可以随时随地启动任务。Lenny 补充了一个场景：飞机上的人"必须让 agent 完成工作，需要 Wi-Fi"。
- Co-work：定位于"产出不是代码"的所有工作——Slack 回复管理、制作演示文稿、撰写文档、拟定发布计划。Cat Wu 的心智模型很清晰：输出是代码→Claude Code/Desktop/Mobile；输出不是代码→Co-work。
Co-work 深度案例：从 20 页幻灯片到每日客户简报
核心要点：Co-work 的真正威力在于连接数据源（Slack、Gmail、Google Drive、Google Calendar）后的深度上下文理解——它不只是一个聊天机器人，而是一个能主动在组织知识库中搜索、综合、生成产出的 agent。
- 20 页幻灯片一夜生成的故事：Cat Wu 需要为即将到来的 Code with Cloud 大会准备一场演讲，讲述 Claude Code 从助手到全面 agent 的演变。她的 PMM Alex 已经起草了初步要点。Cat Wu 把 Alex 的草稿、自己不满意的手动版本、以及"不要和更重要的 keynote 重叠"等约束一起喂给 Co-work，让它先生成带细节的大纲提案。Co-work 花了一个小时——翻 Twitter 查发布历史、翻 evergreen launch room、翻 Cloud Code announce 频道（团队分享 Claude Code 使用心得的内部频道），综合出一份 20 页的幻灯片。Cat Wu 第二天早上醒来看到初稿"还挺好的"，只需做一些调整（"我喜欢极少文字的幻灯片，它太多字了"）。因为 Co-work 可以访问 Anthropic 的设计系统，幻灯片看起来"像 Anthropic 设计师做的"。
- 使用方法的关键步骤：①连接所有相关数据源（Slack、Gmail、G Drive、Google Calendar）——这是质量的基础；②给出清晰的 prompt（"为 Code with Cloud 大会做幻灯片、覆盖这些要点、参考这个草稿、不要和 keynote 重叠"）；③先让它生成大纲和可能性，人做最终决策；④决策后 Co-work 自行执行数小时完成全部幻灯片。设计系统可以通过上传标准模板或连接 Figma MCP 实现。
- Applied AI 团队每日客户简报：Applied AI 团队成员每天可能有 5-10 个客户会议。前一天晚上，他们让 Co-work 汇总"明天所有客户会议的背景、客户近期关心什么、历史 action items、待回复的问题"。如果客户问过"X 功能什么时候发布"，Co-work 还会自动在 Slack 中搜索最新 ETA 并加入简报。这些都是个人自建的工作流，然后在团队内分享。
- Gmail inbox zero 的挣扎：Cat Wu 自己正在训练 Co-work 帮她实现 Gmail inbox zero，坦承"非常耗时，还没做到"。Lenny 也分享了类似经历——设了一个自动分类"spammy"邮件的工作流，95% 准确但偶尔会误删重要邮件。Cat Wu 的建议是把它推到 100%。
"If an automation doesn't work 100% of the time, it's not really an automation." —— Cat Wu
从追赶到 $110 亿 ARR：统一使命与极致聚焦
核心要点：Anthropic 从最不被看好的追赶者（资金最少、没有分发渠道、OpenAI 遥遥领先）成长为 $110 亿 ARR，靠的是两件事：统一使命让跨组织决策极快，以及极致聚焦到愿意牺牲自己产品线的成功。
- Lenny 回顾了 Anthropic 的起点：最晚入场、资金最少、没有分发渠道、OpenAI 遥遥领先——"没人认为 Anthropic 有任何机会长期竞争"。现在 ARR 达到 $110 亿，月增速极高。
- 统一使命的威力：Anthropic 招的是"最关心为全人类带来安全 AGI"的人。这个使命不是挂在墙上的标语，而是日常决策的工具——当两个优先级冲突时，团队问"哪个更有利于 Anthropic 的使命"，答案立刻明确，所有人站到同一侧。Cat Wu 强调，她见过的其他同等规模公司做不到这一点。
- 极致聚焦的含义：Cat Wu 严格区分"使命"和"聚焦"。使命意味着团队愿意牺牲自己产品线的 KR 来服务公司目标；聚焦意味着不做与核心使命无关的事。Lenny 暗示了对比——另一家"名字押韵的公司"做了社交网络、信息流等与核心使命无关的产品，而 Anthropic 没有。
- "如果 Claude Code 失败但 Anthropic 成功了，我会非常开心"——Cat Wu 说整个团队都真心愿意做出这种取舍。这不是一句口号，而是实际影响决策的原则：有时 Claude Code 想发布某个功能，但另一件事对公司更重要，团队就会主动推迟自己的发布。
"If Claude Code failed but Anthropic succeeded, I would be extremely happy." —— Cat Wu
新模型做减法不做加法——to-do list 的退役与代码审查的诞生
核心要点：每次新模型发布，产品团队的首要工作不是加新功能，而是删除不再需要的提示和功能；同时，之前因模型能力不足而无法上线的功能会自然解锁。
- to-do list 的完整演变故事：Claude Code 最初面临一个问题——用户要求做 20 处代码修改，模型改了 5 处就停了。团队的 Sid 想到"人类会怎么做？就像 VS Code 里列出所有调用点然后逐一替换"，于是给 Claude 加了一个 to-do list 工具。早期模型需要反复提醒"你完成了 to-do list 上的所有项吗？不能在做完之前停下来"。到了 Opus 4 及之后的模型，不需要任何提示，模型自发使用 to-do list 并完成所有项。现在 to-do list 已经从"必要工具"降格为"对用户有帮助的可选展示"——"模型可能用也可能不用，真的不再是完成彻底修改所必需的了。"
- 代码审查功能的诞生：团队多次尝试构建代码审查产品，但早期模型的准确度不够。"一直梦想 Claude 能成为可靠的代码审查员"——直到 Opus 4.5、Opus 4.6 和 Sonnet 4.6，团队才觉得"可以同时运行多个代码审查 agent 来遍历整个代码库，综合出工程师合并前必须解决的真实问题"。现在工程团队已经依赖这个代码审查作为 PR 合并前的必经环节。
- 系统提示的持续瘦身：每次发布新模型，团队都会通读整个系统提示，逐条评估"模型还需要这个提醒吗？"如果不需要就删除。Cat Wu 的总结：不要急着给产品加功能；更聪明的模型意味着可以移除现有的"拐杖"。
- Lenny 引用了之前一位嘉宾的话："模型会把你的 harness 当早餐吃掉"——随着模型变聪明，你搭建的辅助架构会变得多余。Cat Wu 完全认同。
"A lot of the changes that we make with a new model is removing features that are no longer needed." —— Cat Wu
Claude 性格是核心竞争力，不是装饰
核心要点：Claude 的性格（低自我、积极主动、真诚反馈）不是"有趣的附加值"，而是用户反复提到的核心留存因素，也是 Anthropic 区别于其他模型的关键差异化。
- Cat Wu 将 Claude 性格比作"你工作中遇到的那些你特别喜欢其气场的人"——这是用户提到最多的一点。具体表现：当你指出 Claude 的错误时，它会真诚道歉（"Oh shoot, thanks for telling me, let me fix it"），而不是辩解；当你面对一个看似无法完成的任务时，Claude 会给出清晰的步骤并主动提出"要我先开始吗？"
- 负责塑造 Claude 性格的是 Amanda。Cat Wu 特别称赞了她的工作——"编码至少还能验证成功与否，但塑造性格需要对'Claude 应该是谁'有极强的conviction"。Amanda 不仅能塑造性格，还能清晰地表达什么是成功、什么是不成功的标准。
- Lenny 回忆了联合创始人 Ben Mann 上播客时的观点：Claude 的性格和宪法是 Claude 之所以好用的核心原因——"很多人以为性格只是表面的、有趣的包装，但实际上它深刻影响了模型在各种任务上的表现。"Open Claude 事件中用户最失落的原因之一，正是他们已经调教出的 Claude 个性可能受影响。
- 团队获取模型反馈的方式也很独特：每次测试新模型时，在团队午餐上逐一问每个人"你对这个模型的 vibe 感觉如何？"团队成员会给出非常细致的感知反馈——"这个模型解释思路太生硬"、"这个模型太喜欢写记忆但质量不高"、"这个模型很喜欢自测但另一个不够"。这些反馈帮助团队确定要在数据中验证的假设。
产品愿景：从单任务到 50-100 并行 Agent
核心要点：Claude Code 和 Co-work 的演进路径是"building blocks"——从单任务成功率→多任务并行（6 个）→50-100 个 agent 同时运行，最终需要远程执行、自动验证、自我改进的反馈循环。
- Cat Wu 用"building blocks"框架来描述产品演进：核心积木是让单个任务成功——给一个清晰的 prompt，agent 能否持续产出可接受的输出（可以合并的代码、可以分享的文档）。随着模型变聪明，单任务成功率提高，用户自然开始同时运行多个任务。
- 多任务编码（multi-coding）从 2025 年底开始成为趋势，此后持续增长。当前用户可能同时运行 6 个任务，但 Cat Wu 认为下一步是 50 个甚至上百个 agent 同时运行。
- 到那个规模，本地机器（Mac）的 RAM 不够了，必须走远程执行。这带来三个关键的产品/基础设施问题：①如何让用户高效管理这么多并行任务？②如何确保 agent 充分自验证——当一个任务显示"已完成"时，用户可以快速确认且完全信任？③如何构建自我改进的反馈循环——当用户发现某个任务不达标并给出反馈后，模型在所有未来运行中都能吸收这个反馈、不再犯同样的错误？
AI 时代生存指南：自动化做到 100%、不要过度定制、"Just Do Things"
核心要点：Cat Wu 给知识工作者的三条核心建议：把重复工作的自动化推到 100% 才有价值；不要走过度定制工具的极端；以及她的人生信条"Just Do Things"——不要被角色边界和流程束缚。
- 自动化必须做到 100%：Cat Wu 观察到大多数人把自动化做到 90-95% 就放弃了，但"如果自动化不能 100% 工作，它就不是真正的自动化"。她承认构建自动化往往比手动做更慢，但鼓励人们花时间把它推到完美——教 Claude 你的偏好、给反馈让它改进、直到完全可靠。她和 Lenny 都以 Gmail 自动分类为例承认自己也在这方面"有罪"。
- 不要过度定制：Cat Wu 看到用户群体的两个极端——从不自动化的人，和沉迷于定制工具（堆 skills、堆 MCP、堆工作流优化）以至于忘记了原本要做什么的人。"我觉得简单的 setup 其实效果更好。"Lenny 补充了 Twitter 上的典型场景："看看我的 setup！太优化了！""那你到底在做什么产品？""没有，但我的 setup 超厉害。"
- "Just Do Things"：Cat Wu 的人生信条。她认为如果你理解约束条件、有强的第一性原理，就可以推导出正确的行动方案，然后直接去做——快速执行、从错误中学习、做错了就道歉修复。"职位是虚构的（jobs are fake）。如果你理解约束，你能想出自己能做什么，然后就去做。"她特别回忆了在 Scale AI 20 人时期的经历——没有流程、没有角色边界、只有大问题需要解决，这种环境锻炼了"不等许可就行动"的能力。
- 建议不要只做原型玩具：很多人用 AI 搭原型、做 demo，但从不真正使用。Cat Wu 认为"只有每天实际使用的 app 才能真正产生价值"——你不仅学不到东西，也得不到真正的杠杆效应。
- Cat Wu 提到了 Karpathy 最近的推文：一批人在 2024 年试过 ChatGPT/Claude 觉得一般然后放弃，另一批人用 AI 编程后看到了全部威力——两批人互相不理解。"大转变在于 2024 年的产品是基于聊天的，Claude Code 这一代产品是基于行动的。当 Claude 可以替你做事而不只是告诉你怎么做时——那就是让人眼前一亮的时刻。"
"Just do things. I think jobs are fake. If you understand the constraints, you can figure out what you can do and then just try to do it quickly." —— Cat Wu
源代码泄露事件 + Open Claude 决策
核心要点：源代码泄露是人为错误导致的流程问题（已修复），不是安全漏洞；Open Claude 的限制是 Anthropic 优先第一方产品和 API 的战略决策。
- 源代码泄露：有人在使用 Claude 写 PR（一个关于包发布方式的更新）时，代码意外公开。该 PR 经过了两层人工审核仍未发现问题。Cat Wu 定性为"人为错误"和"流程失败"，强调当事人仍在公司——"最重要的是从中学习、增加保障措施"。团队已经加固了流程，大部分改进已上线。Lenny 追问当事人是否还在 Anthropic，Cat Wu 确认"是的"，重申这是流程问题而非个人问题。
- Open Claude 决策：Anthropic 的订阅不是为第三方产品设计的，第三方产品的使用模式与第一方不同。Claude 的需求量非常大，团队一直在努力扩展基础设施并让 harness 更省 token。最终决定：每个订阅用户会获得一定额度的 credits，但优先保障第一方产品和 API。Lenny 坦率评价"这完全合理——你们在以 $200/月补贴几乎无限量的使用，企业需要盈利，不能无限赠送算力"。
Lightning Round
核心要点：Cat Wu 的推荐书目、爱好和人生态度，展现了一个关注历史纵深、追求极致专注、践行"Just Do Things"的产品人画像。
- 推荐书籍：《How Asia Works》（经济发展与政府政策）、《The Technology Trap》（历史上的技术革命对劳动者的影响——"我们可以从历史中学到很多，确保这次转型顺利"）、《Paper Menagerie》（短篇小说集，关于成长、AI 与自我发现）。
- 影视推荐：《Drive to Survive》（F1 纪录片——"人们如此沉迷于一个纯粹的工程目标，追求的纯粹性很让人满足"）和《Free Solo》（Alex Honnold 无保护攀登 El Capitan）。Cat Wu 本人是攀岩爱好者，在开始攀岩前看过 Free Solo 觉得很厉害；开始攀岩后才理解"那有多疯狂"——"他在岩壁上做的动作，就算在离地一英尺的健身房里、系着绳子，我这辈子也做不到。"
- 最爱产品：Waymo。每天通勤两趟。两个理由：①不需要为让 Waymo 等而感到不好意思；②可以在车上开工作电话而不用顾虑是否对司机不礼貌、说话是否太大声。"每天多出约 30 分钟。"Cat Wu 说她原以为 Waymo 必须比 Uber/Lyft 便宜才能成功，结果"我很乐意付 2 倍溢价"。Waymo 还改变了 Anthropic 内部的语言——以前说"叫个网约车"，现在直接说"Waymo 到了吗？"
- 人生信条："Just Do Things。"
- 最爱的 thinking word："Manifesting。"也是她最喜欢的贴纸。
- AGI 之后做什么：帮助 AGI 惠及全社会（"扩散需要很长时间"），然后搬到 Fontainebleau 在一万块巨石间攀岩、每周读一两本书（目前大约每两周一本，积压很多）、学物理/机器人/硬件/航空航天等"完全不懂的领域"。
附录：关键人/机构/产品/数据
| 项目 | 详情 |
|------|------|
| Cat Wu | Anthropic Claude Code & Co-work 产品负责人，前工程师，前 VC（曾在 Scale AI 20 人阶段工作） |
| Boris | Anthropic Claude Code 技术负责人/产品愿景制定者，Lenny's Podcast 史上最热门嘉宾 |
| Amanda | 负责塑造 Claude 性格的核心人物 |
| Sid | Claude Code 团队工程师，设计了 to-do list 功能 |
| Sarah | Anthropic 文档负责人 |
| Alex | Anthropic PMM 负责人 |
| Diane | Anthropic 研究 PM 团队负责人 |
| Amole | 最近上过 Lenny 播客的嘉宾，观点是需要更多 PM |
| Anthropic PM 团队 | 约 30-40 人，分为研究 PM、Cloud 开发者平台、Claude Code/Co-work、企业、增长等团队 |
| Anthropic ARR | $110 亿，月增速极高 |
| Claude Code | CLI 终端 AI 编码工具，功能最先落地的产品面 |
| Claude Desktop | 图形化界面版本，支持前端预览、跨会话控制面板 |
| Co-work | 非代码产出的 AI 工作工具（文档/幻灯片/邮件/Slack 管理） |
| Managed Agents | Cloud 开发者平台产品，允许用户构建 agent 并由 Anthropic 托管运行 |
| Research Preview | 新功能发布机制，降低发布承诺，快速获取反馈 |
| /powerup | Claude Code 内置引导功能，帮用户了解最重要的 10 个功能 |
| Opus 4.5/4.6, Sonnet 4.6 | 使代码审查功能达到可靠水平的模型版本 |
| Mythos | Anthropic 极强但仍在预览中的模型（"太强大以至于人们有点担心"） |
| to-do list | Claude Code 功能，从必要工具演变为可选展示 |
| Waymo | Cat Wu 最爱产品，每日通勤工具 |
| Scale AI | Cat Wu 曾工作过的公司（20 人阶段） |
| Fontainebleau | 法国著名抱石攀岩胜地，Cat Wu 的 AGI 后理想生活地 |
中文翻译 English Original
**Lenny：** 今天的嘉宾是 Cat Wu，Anthropic Claude Code 和 Co-work 产品负责人。Cat 处在 AI、产品和开发领域一切变革的中心。她和她的团队正在打造一款最深刻改变我们构建产品方式的产品。她有太多洞见、智慧和经验可以分享。这期节目你绝对不能错过。在正式开始之前，别忘了访问 lennispodcast.com 获取大量 Lenny 通讯订阅者专享的优惠活动。好，有请 Cat Wu。
**Lenny:** Today my guest is Cat Wu, head of product for Claude Code and Co-work at Anthropic. Cat is at the center of everything that is changing in AI and product and building. And she and her team are building the product that is most changing the way that we all build our products. She is so full of insights and wisdom and lessons. This is an episode you cannot miss. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennispodcast.com for an insane set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Cat Wu.
**Lenny：** Cat，欢迎来到播客。
**Lenny:** Cat, welcome to the podcast.
**Cat Wu：** 感谢邀请。
**Cat Wu:** Thanks for having me.
**Lenny：** 我有太多问题想问了。能请到你来我特别兴奋。我想先让大家了解你和 Boris 的分工。所有人都认识 Boris，他那期是我这个播客上最受欢迎的一期——没有压力哈。他创造了 Claude Code，领导团队，每天在手机上提交大量 PR，数量我都记不清了。我觉得大家对 Claude Code、Co-work 以及你们团队所取得的成就，没有给你足够的认可。帮我们理解一下你在团队中的角色吧：你和 Boris 怎么合作？职责怎么划分？PM（产品经理）在 Claude Code 团队里是什么样的？
**Lenny:** I have so many questions. I'm so excited to have you on this podcast. I want to start with giving people an understanding of your role alongside Boris. Everybody knows Boris. His episode is the number one most popular episode on this podcast. No pressure. He created Claude Code. He leads the team, ships a bazillion PRs a day from his phone. Just like I don't even know what the number is anymore. I think people don't give you enough credit for the success that Claude Code has had and Co-work and all the things you all are building. Help us understand your role on the team, how you work with Boris, how you split responsibilities, just like what does the PM role look like on the Claude Code team?
**Cat Wu：** 能和 Boris 共事我觉得非常幸运。他是很出色的思想伙伴。他是我们的技术负责人（tech lead），很有产品远见。他特别擅长设定方向——未来三个月、六个月产品应该是什么样子，以及通用人工智能（AGI）终极版本的产品是什么样。
**Cat Wu:** I feel very lucky to work with Boris. He's been an amazing thought partner. He's our tech lead. He's very much the product visionary and he is great at setting like this is what the product needs to be in like three months, six months from now. This is like what the AGI pill version of the product is.
**Cat Wu：** 我的角色更多是想清楚从现在到三到六个月后那个愿景之间的路径是什么。我花更多时间在跨职能协调上：确保市场团队、销售团队、财务、算力等各方都认同计划，大家朝同一个方向努力，等功能准备好的时候不会有什么阻碍发布的问题。
**Cat Wu:** And a lot of my role is figuring out okay what is the path from where we are today to like that vision 3 to 6 months from now. And I spend more of my time on the cross functional. So making sure that our marketing team, sales team, finance, capacity, etc. are like bought in on the plan and that we're all rowing the same direction and that once the feature is ready that there aren't any blockers to shipping it.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得这种合作之所以顺利，是因为我们在很大程度上想法高度一致（mind-meld），但分界线其实非常模糊。大概 80% 的事情我们想法完全一致，然后有 20% 是我比 Boris 更在意的，那些就由我来推动；另外 20% 是他比我更在意的，就由他来推。
**Cat Wu:** I think in many ways it works well because we kind of like mind-meld but it is actually like remarkably blurry of a line. Like I think we're like 80% mind-melded and then there's like this 20% of things that like maybe I care a lot more about than Boris. So like I'll drive those and then like 20% where he cares a lot more than me and he just like drives those.
**Lenny：** 本期节目由我们本季冠名赞助商 WorkOS 呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他出色的公司有什么共同点？它们都使用 WorkOS。如果你在构建面向企业的产品，你一定体会过集成单点登录（SSO）、SCIM、基于角色的访问控制（RBAC）、审计日志等大型企业要求的功能有多痛苦。WorkOS 把这些阻碍交易的功能变成了即插即用的 API，它是一个专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台。
**Lenny:** This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Vercel, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by WorkOS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS.
**Lenny：** 我投资的每一家初创公司，只要开始向上拓展企业市场，最终都会和 WorkOS 合作。因为他们就是最好的。不管你是想拿下第一个企业客户的种子期初创公司，还是全球扩张的独角兽，WorkOS 都是让产品达到企业就绪状态、突破增长瓶颈的最快路径。它本质上就是企业功能领域的 Stripe。访问 workos.com 开始使用，或者在他们的 Slack 上直接联系，那里有真正的工程师等着回答你的问题。WorkOS 提供令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验，让你构建更快。访问 workos.com，让你的应用今天就达到企业就绪状态。
**Lenny:** Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with WorkOS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today.
**Lenny：** 其实录制前你分享了一件事：你一直在面试大量 PM。如果每次有人找我帮忙介绍 Anthropic 的 PM 岗位我就能拿到五美分，我现在的年化经常性收入（ARR）早就有 300 亿美元了。Anthropic 就是大家最想去的地方。我能想象你面试了多少 PM。你告诉我，你发现很多人对如何成为成功的 AI PM 理解是错的。说说你观察到了什么，以及大家需要理解什么。
**Lenny:** Something that you shared actually before we started recording is the fact that you're interviewing hundreds of PMs all the time. Like if I had a nickel every time someone asked me for an intro to someone at Anthropic to go work at Anthropic as a PM, I'd have 30 billion in ARR. It's just like the number one place people want to go work at. So, I can only imagine how many PMs you're interviewing. You told me that you're just seeing people doing it wrong, the way they're approaching what they think it takes to be a successful AI PM. Talk about what you're seeing and what people need to understand about what it is, what it takes to be successful these days.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得在 AI 之前，技术变革要慢得多。你可以按 6 到 12 个月的周期来规划。因为发布功能的速度比较慢，所以会把大量精力放在和其他合作团队的协调上，确保他们在发布那些为你的功能扫清障碍的功能。因为那个时候写代码的成本很高。
**Cat Wu:** I think before AI, technology shifts were a lot slower. So, you could plan on the 6 to 12 month time horizons. And because you were shipping features at a bit of a slower rate, there was a lot more emphasis on coordinating with all the other partner teams to make sure that they're shipping features that unblock your features because code at that time was very expensive to make.
**Cat Wu：** 现在有了 AI，工程效率大幅提升，模型能力也在快速进化。我们很多产品功能的周期已经从 6 个月缩短到 1 个月，有时候缩短到 1 周甚至 1 天。在这种节奏下，我们必须确保产品能非常快地交付。
**Cat Wu:** I think now with AI and with how much that has accelerated engineering and with how quickly the model capabilities are improving, the timelines for a lot of our product features have gone down from 6 months to one month and sometimes to one week or even one day. And with that, we actually need to make sure that products ship quite quickly.
**Cat Wu：** 这意味着作为 PM，应该减少在跨季度路线图与合作团队对齐上花的精力，更多地思考：怎样用最快的方式把东西推出去？怎样在产品体系中划出一个「概念角落」（concept corner），让工程师或 PM 有个想法后，在一周之内就能交到用户手上。
**Cat Wu:** And what that means is as a PM, there should be less emphasis on making sure that you're aligning your like multi-quarter road maps with your partner teams and more emphasis on okay, how can we figure out the fastest way to get something out the door? How can we figure out how to make like a concept corner of our product suite where we can just -- an engineer has an idea or a PM has an idea and like by the end of the week we are able to get it into our users' hands.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得在 AI 原生产品上做得最好的 PM，是那些能想清楚「如何缩短从有想法到产品触达用户之间的时间」的人，同时能帮团队定义好产品开箱即用必须完成的最重要任务。
**Cat Wu:** I think the PMs who do the best on AI native products are the ones who can figure out how can I shorten the time from having this idea to actually getting the product in the hands of users and help define what are the most important tasks that need to work out of the box for my product.
**Lenny：** 我很喜欢你说的这些。你的意思本质上是：很多人还没有意识到他们需要多快地行动，以及现在这份工作有多大比例是在帮助团队快速前进。那怎么做到呢？除了能用上最先进的模型之外，你和你的 PM 团队做了什么来推动这种速度？
**Lenny:** So, what I love about this is what you're saying is just like people haven't grasped how fast they need to move and how much of the job now is just helping the team move fast. What helps do that? What do you do? What does your PM team do to help them move this fast other than have access to the most advanced models?
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得第一件事是设定清晰的目标。因为大语言模型（LLM）太通用了，实际上会带来很多模糊性——我们在为谁构建、试图解决什么问题、最重要的使用场景是什么。所以优秀的 PM 能够说：我们的核心用户是专业开发者；这个功能要解决的主要问题是权限提示太多、用户感到疲劳；使用场景是让企业里的专业开发者能安全地做到零权限提示。
**Cat Wu:** I think the first thing is to set clear goals because LLMs are so general that it actually creates a lot of ambiguity in who we're building for, what problems we're trying to solve, what the top use cases are. And so I think a great PM is able to say, okay, our key user is professional developers. The main problem that we want to solve for this feature is maybe there's like too many permission prompts and people are feeling fatigue. And like the use case is we want professional developers at enterprises to safely get to zero permission prompts.
**Cat Wu：** 这其实设定了一个非常清晰的目标，因为它排除了大量减少权限提示的潜在方案，让大家能用一次提示完成更多工作。
**Cat Wu:** And that actually sets a pretty clear goal because it rules out a lot of potential approaches for reducing permission prompts so that people can get a lot more done with one prompt.
**Cat Wu：** 第二件很重要的事是找到某种可重复的流程来交付功能。在 Claude Code 上，我们的做法是几乎所有功能都以「研究预览」（research preview）的形式发布。发布时我们会清晰地标注，让用户知道这是早期产品、只是一个想法、只是我们在尝试收集反馈和迭代的东西，而且不一定会永久支持。这样做降低了发布的承诺门槛。我们可以在一两周内就把东西推出去。
**Cat Wu:** And then I think the second thing that's very important is figuring out some repeatable process for getting these features shipped. So for Claude Code what we do is we actually ship almost all of our features in research preview. We clearly brand this when we ship something so that users know that this is an early product. This is just an idea. This is just something that we're trying to get feedback on and iterating on and that this might not be supported forever. And what this does is it reduces our commitment for shipping something. We can just get something out in a week or two.
**Cat Wu：** 第三件 PM 应该做的事，是为团队创建一个框架，让他们知道什么时候该拉入跨职能合作伙伴，以及这些合作伙伴的期望是什么。举个例子，我们在工程、市场和文档之间有一个非常紧密的流程。当工程师觉得某个功能已经准备好了，而且在内部已经自己试用过（dogfood），他们就发到我们的常设发布频道。然后负责文档的 Sarah、负责产品市场推广（PMM）的 Alex、以及开发者关系（DevRel）的 Tar 和 Lydia 就会马上介入，第二天就能搞定市场宣传。正因为有这个紧密的流程，任何工程师发布功能的阻力都降到了最低。而 PM 就应该是搭建这些流程的角色。
**Cat Wu:** And then the third thing that a PM should do is help create the framework for the team so that they know when to pull in cross functional partners and what those cross-functional partners' expectations are. So for example, we have a really tight process between engineering, marketing and docs. So when engineers have a feature that they feel is ready and that we've dogfooded internally, they post it in our evergreen launch room. And then Sarah who leads our docs and Alex who leads PMM and Tar and Lydia on DevRel just like jump in and can turn around the marketing announcement for it the very next day. And because we have this really tight process it lowers the friction for any engineer to ship something and PM is the role that should be setting this up.
**Lenny：** PRD（产品需求文档）在你们的流程里怎么定位？你说目标非常重要——对齐成功标准、明确这是给谁用的、不是给谁用的。你们会写 PRD 吗？还是就几个要点？在 PM 的世界里这些是怎么演变的？
**Lenny:** How do PRDs fit into this? The fact that you said that goals are a really important part -- just like being aligned on what does success look like? Who is this for? Who's this not for? Are you writing PRDs? Is it just like a couple bullet points? How has that evolved in the world of a PM?
**Cat Wu：** 我们做两件事。第一是我们有非常严格的指标体系，每周和整个团队一起做指标回顾。目的是确保每个人都深度理解我们业务的各个方面——关键目标是什么、趋势怎样、驱动因素是什么。
**Cat Wu:** So there's two things that we do. One is we have very rigorous metrics and we do metrics readouts with the entire team every week. The goal of this is to make sure that everyone deeply understands all the facets of our business. What our key goals are, how they're trending, and what drives them.
**Cat Wu：** 第二件事是我们有一份团队原则清单，包括我们的核心用户是谁、为什么他们是核心用户。我们之所以把这些都清晰表达出来，是为了让团队里的每个人都觉得自己理解我们的业务运作方式、理解什么对我们重要、我们愿意做什么取舍。这样大家就可以自主决策，而不会觉得被 PM 或其他利益相关方卡住。
**Cat Wu:** The second thing that we do is we have this list of team principles. And this includes who our key users are, why those are our key users. And the reason that we articulate all of this is so that everybody on the team feels like they understand how our business works. They understand what's important to us and what we're willing to trade off. And it lets people make decisions by themselves without feeling like they're blocked on PM or any other stakeholder.
**Lenny：** 我很喜欢这一点——你说的很多东西表明，未来我们仍然需要 PM。外面有太多声音说为什么还需要 PM？我们只需要工程师来开发和交付就好了。
**Lenny:** I love how so much of this is like, okay, we still need PMs in the future. There's so much talk of like why do we need PMs? We're just going to ship and build. We need engineers.
**Cat Wu：** 对了，我们有时候也会写 PRD。对于那些特别模糊的功能，写一页纸的文档确实有帮助——写清目标是什么、令人惊喜的用例是什么、当前需要修复的失败模式是什么。偶尔也有一些项目，尤其是需要大量基础设施建设的，确实要花好几个月。对于那些情况，我们还是会写 PRD。
**Cat Wu:** Oh, we actually do PRDs sometimes. So I think for features that are like particularly ambiguous, it does help to write out just a one-pager on what the goals are, what the delightful use cases are, what the failure modes currently are that we need to fix. And there are occasionally some projects, especially things that require heavy infrastructure that do take many months. And for those situations, we do write PRDs still.
**Lenny：** 我想进一步探究你们到底是怎么做到这么快的。Anthropic 的交付速度我前所未见。有人做了一个 Anthropic 的发布日历，几乎每天都有重大功能或产品发布。大家在网上有个问题：你们刚推出了——不是正式发布，而是构建了——这个令人惊叹的模型 Mythos，它还在预览阶段，因为它太强大了，大家对它的能力有些忌惮。你们自己在用它吗？这是你们能这么快的原因之一吗？
**Lenny:** I want to drill a little bit further into just how you're able to move so fast. I've never seen anything like the pace folks at Anthropic are shipping at. Like someone made this calendar of launches across Anthropic and it was literally every day there was like a major feature or product. So, one question people had online is you guys just launched -- well, not launched but built this incredible model Mythos that is still in preview because it's so powerful people are a little afraid of what it can do. Have you guys been using this? Is this part of the reason you've been able to move so fast?
**Cat Wu：** 我们已经连续好几个季度保持很快的节奏了，所以这不完全是因为 Mythos。Mythos 确实是一个非常强大的模型。但我们确实在内部使用模型，这在一定程度上提高了我们的交付速度，但我不认为它能解释大部分的提速。
**Cat Wu:** We've been moving pretty fast for several quarters now. So, I think it's not fully Mythos. Mythos is an incredibly powerful model. But we do use the models internally and I think this has increased our rate of shipping a little bit but I don't think it explains the bulk of the increase.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得很大一部分原因在于流程和团队的期望。我们流程非常少。我们想要移除交付过程中的每一个障碍。我们想确保团队中的每个人都觉得自己有能力把一个想法，从仅仅是个想法到推向世界，用时不到一周，有时甚至一天。
**Cat Wu:** I think a lot of it is the process and the expectation on the team. So we're very low on process. We want to remove every single barrier to shipping things. We want to make sure every single person on the team feels empowered to take their idea from just an idea to like out in the world in less than a week, sometimes even in a day.
**Lenny：** 酷。天哪，拥有最好的模型，同时还在做产品，这个优势太大了。太酷了。
**Lenny:** Cool. Oh man, what an advantage to have the best model and also be building product. That's so cool.
**Cat Wu：** 我们很幸运能够使用最前沿的模型。
**Cat Wu:** We are very lucky to be able to work with the frontier models.
**Lenny：** 天哪，这个优势太棒了。构建一个东西，然后用它，然后加速得更快。太有意思了。这次对话还有好几个我想探索的旁支话题，Anthropic 发生了太多事情了，我太想听你的见解了。
**Lenny:** Oh my god, what an awesome advantage. Just like build a thing and then use it and then accelerate faster. It's so interesting. There's a couple like these other side things I want to just kind of go on these like side quests on this conversation. There's so much happening with Anthropic and I just I'm so curious to get your insight.
**Lenny：** 一个是大约一周前，Claude Code 的全部源代码泄露了。有人把它放出来了。我想是有人犯了一个错误。你能就此发表评论吗——发生了什么？出了什么问题？大家应该知道什么？
**Lenny:** One is a week ago or so the whole source code of Claude Code leaked. Somebody got it out there. I think it was a mistake someone made. Is there anything you can comment there just like what happened? What went wrong? What should people know?
**Cat Wu：** 我们看到这件事的时候立刻进行了调查。我们确认这是人为失误的结果。有人在用 Claude 写一个 PR，内容只是对我们发布包流程的一个更新，而且它经过了两层人工审核。所以这是人为错误的结果。我们已经加固了流程以确保类似事件不再发生。
**Cat Wu:** So we immediately looked into this when we saw it. We realized that this was the result of human error. There was a human working with Claude to write a PR. This was just an update to how we release our packages and it actually went through two layers of human review. And so this was a result of human error and we've hardened our processes to make sure that it doesn't happen in the future.
**Lenny：** 这个人还在 Anthropic 吗？他/她还好吗？
**Lenny:** Is this person still at Anthropic? Are they doing all right?
**Cat Wu：** 是的，还在。这是流程上的失败。最重要的事是从中吸取教训，增加更多防护措施让它不再发生。这就是我们一直在做的，其中大部分已经上线了。
**Cat Wu:** Yes. Yes. It's a process failure and the most important thing is to just like learn from it and to add more safeguards so that doesn't happen again. And so that's what we've been focused on and most of those have shipped.
**Lenny：** 好的。另一个问题是关于 Open Claude。最近有一个举措，限制人们用 Claude 订阅来搭配 Open Claude 使用。很多人对此很不高兴，不理解为什么这样做。感觉这对开源社区造成了伤害。关于这个决策背后的考量，大家需要了解什么？
**Lenny:** Okay. Another question I had is Open Claude. So recently there's been this move to keep people from using Claude subscription with their Open Claude. People got really upset that they're confused why this is happening. It feels like there's harm caused to the open source community. What do people need to understand about kind of what went into this decision?
**Cat Wu：** 我们一直看到对 Claude 非常大的需求。我们一方面努力扩展基础设施，同时也在让我们的框架（harness）更节省 token（令牌），这样用户能获得更多使用量。它当初设计时不是为第三方产品准备的，而第三方产品的使用模式和我们的第一方产品不同。我们花了很多时间思考怎样提供最无缝的过渡方案。所以我很高兴能够宣布每位订阅用户都能获得一些赠送额度。但确实，我们不得不做出这个艰难决定——需要优先保障我们的第一方产品和 API。这个决定就是由此产生的。
**Cat Wu:** So, we've been seeing a lot of demand for Claude and we've been working very hard to both scale our infrastructure and also to make our harness more token efficient so that you can get more usage out of it. It wasn't designed for third party products which have different usage patterns than our first party ones. We spent a bunch of time trying to figure out what is the most seamless transition that we can offer. And so I was very happy to be able to say that everyone gets some credits alongside their subscription. But yeah, we did have to make the hard decision that we needed to prioritize our first party products and our API. And so this is a decision that resulted from that.
**Lenny：** 对我来说这完全说得通。你们每月 200 美元的订阅本质上在补贴这些用量，而且基本上是无限使用。我觉得很多人不理解企业是要盈利的。我们在努力实现盈利。当算力需求这么大的时候，我们不能白白送出计算资源。所以我理解。
**Lenny:** Yeah, this like to me it makes so much sense. Like you guys are subsidizing this usage at like 200 bucks a month and there's like basically unlimited use of this and like I think people don't understand businesses are trying to make money. We're trying to be profitable here. We can't just like give away compute when it's so in demand. So I get it.
**Lenny：** 回到 PM 团队的话题。Anthropic 的 PM 团队是什么样的？有多少 PM？怎么组织的？
**Lenny:** Coming back to the PM team, what does the PM team look like at Anthropic? How many PMs are there? How are they kind of organized?
**Cat Wu：** 我们有几个 PM 团队，目前大概有 30 到 40 名 PM。研究 PM 团队由 Diane 领导，这个团队负责理解客户对我们模型的所有反馈，然后传达给最好的研究团队去改进。他们还负责管理模型的发布流程。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, so we have a few PM teams. I think we're maybe around 30 or 40 PMs right now. So we have the research PM team who Diane leads and this team is responsible for understanding all of the feedback from our customers for our models and then feeding that to the best research team to act on it and they also shepherd the model launch.
**Cat Wu：** 还有 Cloud 开发者平台（CDP）团队，维护 Claude Code 所依赖的 API。他们还发布了像托管代理（managed agents）这样的产品——你可以构建自己的代理，我们代为托管。
**Cat Wu:** There's the Cloud Developer Platform team that maintains the APIs that Claude Code is built on top of and they also release things like managed agents which is a way for you to build your agents and we can host it on your behalf.
**Cat Wu：** 然后是 Claude Code 团队，同时负责 Claude Code 和 Co-work 核心产品。还有企业团队，帮助企业客户更容易地采用 Claude Code 和 Co-work。他们负责的包括成本控制、基于角色的访问控制（RBAC）、安全控制，以及确保这些企业在使用我们的工具时感到非常放心和安心。
**Cat Wu:** And then there's Claude Code that works on both Claude Code and the Co-work core products. There's enterprise that helps make Claude Code and Co-work easier to adopt for all of our enterprise customers. And so this is everything from like cost controls, RBAC, security controls and just making sure that these enterprises feel very confident and comfortable using our tools.
**Cat Wu：** 我们还有增长团队，负责推动整个产品线的增长。我们在 Claude Code 和 Co-work 的增长上和他们紧密合作，我知道他们也和其他团队合作推动 CDP 的增长——也就是使用 Cloud API 的开发者增长。
**Cat Wu:** And then we also have our growth team that is responsible for growing across our entire product suite. So we work very closely with them on Claude Code and Co-work growth and I know they also work with our other teams on CDP growth. So growth of people who use the Cloud API.
**Lenny：** 说到增长，Amjad 刚上过播客，他分享了一个很有意思的观点，大多数人没有提到过。人们总有一种感觉：未来我们需要更少的 PM。为什么还需要 PM？工程师自己就能交付。但他的观点是，因为工程师推进得太快了，PM 和设计师反而被挤压了——没有足够的时间跟上所有正在发生的事情，每天都有功能在发布。所以他的看法是他需要更多 PM，因为太难跟上了。你怎么看？你觉得 PM 的招聘会增加吗？你对 PM 这个职业的长期发展怎么看？
**Lenny:** So speaking of growth, Amjad was just on the podcast. He had this really interesting insight that most people haven't been sharing. There's always this sense that we need fewer PMs in the future. What's the -- why do we need PMs? Engineers can just ship. His take is that because engineers are moving so fast, PMs and designers are squeezed. There's less time to stay on top of everything that is happening. There's a feature shipping every day. So his take is he needs more PMs because it's hard to keep up. What's your take there? Do you feel like there will be an increase in hiring of PMs? What do you think is going on with the PM profession long term?
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得所有角色都在融合。PM 在做一些工程工作，工程师在做 PM 的工作，设计师在做 PM 的事情同时也在写代码。你可以选择招更多有优秀产品品味（product taste）的工程师，也可以保持工程招聘不变，转而招更多 PM 来帮助引导部分工作。
**Cat Wu:** I think all of the roles are merging. PMs are doing some engineering work, engineers are doing PM work, designers are PMing and also landing code. You can either hire a lot more engineers who have great product taste or you can keep your engineering hiring the same and hire a lot more PMs to help guide some of their work.
**Cat Wu：** 在我们团队，我们比较专注于招聘有优秀产品品味的工程师。这样可以减少交付任何产品的额外开销。我们团队有很多工程师完全有能力端到端地完成整个流程——从在 Twitter 上看到用户反馈，到周末前把产品交付出去——几乎不需要产品经理介入。我觉得这实际上是最高效的交付方式。
**Cat Wu:** On our team we're pretty focused on hiring engineers with great product taste. This way we can reduce the amount of overhead for shipping any product. Like there are many engineers on our team who are fully able to end to end go from see user feedback on Twitter through to like ship a product at the end of the week with almost no product involvement. And this I think is actually like the most efficient way to ship something.
**Cat Wu：** 所以我觉得工程师和 PM 的角色确实在重叠，两者多招都会有很大的好处。产品品味仍然是一种非常稀有的能力，我们基本上会录用任何我们觉得在这方面有强烈证明的人。
**Cat Wu:** So I think like engineer and PM are kind of overlapping and you will get a lot of benefit from having more of either. I think product taste is still a very rare skill to have and we'll pretty much hire anyone who we feel has demonstrated this strongly.
**Lenny：** 你的背景是工程对吧？
**Lenny:** And your background was in engineering, right?
**Cat Wu：** 是的，我做了很多年工程师。之后非常短暂地做过风投（VC），然后加入了 Anthropic。实际上我们团队里几乎所有 PM 要么做过工程师，要么在 Claude Code 团队里写代码。我觉得这是帮助建立团队信任的因素之一，也让我们能够更快地推进。而且我们的设计师其实之前也做过前端工程师。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, I was an engineer for many years. I was then a VC very briefly before joining Anthropic and actually almost all the PMs on our team have either been engineers or ship code here on Claude Code and so that's one of the things that I think helps build trust with the team and also just enables us to move a lot faster. And then actually our designers also have been front-end engineers before.
**Lenny：** 哇。这正是大家最关心的问题。这种融合确实在发生，维恩图在合并。我觉得很多人心中的大问题是：如果你来自工程、产品或设计背景，哪种核心能力会最有价值？我能看到在 Anthropic 和 Claude Code 团队，工程能力非常有价值。但我好奇在其他公司，设计背景转 PM 是不是更有价值，还是说纯 PM 背景就够了。
**Lenny:** Wow. Because that's the big question like there's definitely this merging that's happening, the Venn diagrams are combining. I think the big question for a lot of people is if you're coming from engineering or product or design, which of those core skills is going to be most valuable? I could see at Anthropic and on Claude Code, engineering is very valuable. I'm curious if at other companies, if you have a design background, becoming a PM is more valuable or just a PM background.
**Cat Wu：** 我仍然觉得核心在于产品品味。随着写代码变得越来越廉价，更有价值的是决定写什么。这个功能正确的用户体验（UX）是什么？用户体验它最令人惊喜的方式是什么？
**Cat Wu:** I still think it comes back to product taste. Like as code becomes much cheaper to write, the thing that becomes more valuable is deciding what to write. Like what is the right UX for this feature? What is the most delightful way that a user can experience it?
**Cat Wu：** 我们收到了数以万计的 GitHub issue，什么需求都有。需要大量的用心和品味才能判断哪些值得做，以及正确的做法是什么。我觉得这种能力可以来自任何背景，但这是最重要的。
**Cat Wu:** We get tens of thousands of GitHub issues asking for every single thing under the sun and it takes a lot of care and taste to figure out okay which of these is worth building and what is the right way to build it and I think that skill set can come from any background but I think that's the most important thing.
**Cat Wu：** 我认为工程背景之所以至少在接下来几个月特别有用，是因为如果你有工程背景，你对一件事应该有多难会有更好的感觉。而这往往是决定做什么时的一个考量因素。如果某件事非常容易做，那与其争论，不如花一个小时把它做了。但如果某件事比较难做，而且你事先就知道，你就清楚——做这件事对团队来说成本会高很多。所以它对优先级排序有一定帮助。
**Cat Wu:** I think the reason why an engineering background is particularly useful at least for the next few months is if you have an engineering background, you have a better sense for how hard something should be. And that's often a factor in what you choose to build. So like if something is very easy to build, then maybe instead of debating it, you just spend an hour doing it. But if something is harder to build and you know that upfront, that you know that okay this will just like cost a lot more for our team to get this out the door. So it helps a bit with the prioritization.
**Lenny：** 你说了"接下来几个月"——是因为模型在接下来几个月可能会变得非常强大，到时候你甚至不需要那么了解工程了吗？
**Lenny:** You said "in the next few months" -- is that just like because the models will get so good potentially in the next few months you may not even need to know that as much?
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得有价值的能力集确实在频繁变化，所以很难预测几个月之后的事情。所以这与其说是在评论我认为会发生什么转变，不如说是在评论我认为会有重大转变发生。
**Cat Wu:** I think the valued skill sets do change quite frequently and so it's really hard to predict more than a few months out. So it's less a commentary on what shift I think will happen and more of a commentary that I think large shifts will happen.
**Lenny：** 所以你不是在说 Mythos 就要发布了，它会改变一切，我们不再需要了解工程了。
**Lenny:** So you're not saying that's when Mythos comes out and will change everything and that we don't need to know anything about engineering.
**Cat Wu：** 不是。我只是说，似乎每隔几个月编程能力都会有一次大幅提升，而这会改变其他角色的价值。
**Cat Wu:** No, I'm just saying that every few months it seems like there's a large increase in coding capability which then changes what other roles are valuable.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得最重要的是具备第一性原理（first principles）思维——能够判断技术格局如何变化，团队真正需要你做什么，然后跳进去填补那个空缺。因为我觉得工作内容正在变得越来越没有固定形态，这意味着优秀的 PM 需要能够理解所有的缺口在哪里，判断哪些是最高优先级的，然后想清楚——我需要学习什么技能，或者我已有的什么技能可以应用到这个挑战上。
**Cat Wu:** I think the most important thing is to be able to have this like first principles thinking where you can figure out how the tech landscape is changing, what the team really needs from you, and to like jump in and fix that hole because I think the work is becoming more amorphous which means that a great PM is able to understand what all the gaps are, to figure out what the highest priority ones are, and then to just like figure out okay how do I learn that skill set or what is the skill set that I have that I can apply to this challenge.
**Cat Wu：** 所以我觉得当前的环境青睐那些能戴很多顶帽子、能灵活切换角色、并且在做什么工作来帮助团队加速这件事上非常低自我（low ego）的人。
**Cat Wu:** So I think the current environment values people who are able to wear a lot of hats, are able to swap them, and are like very low ego about what work they do to help the team move faster.
**Lenny：** 我很喜欢这个答案。有一个问题我最近一直在问像你这样处于 AI 能力前沿、用最新工具构建产品的人：在我们达到超级智能之前，人类大脑在哪些方面还会持续有用和必要？
**Lenny:** I love this answer. There's this question I've been asking people in your shoes, folks that are kind of at the bleeding edge of what AI is capable of and building with the latest tools, which is just like where will human brains continue to be useful and necessary for a while until we get to super intelligence.
**Lenny：** 我从你这里听到的本质上是：选择做什么事情、判断市场走向、想清楚该优先做什么。然后是判断做出来的东西是否好、是否正确，并以某种早期版本推出去。听起来对吗？还有没有别的——人类大脑在至少接下来几个月还会持续有用的地方？
**Lenny:** What I'm hearing here is essentially picking the things to work on, knowing where the market's going and figuring out what to prioritize essentially. And then it's knowing if the thing you've built is good and right and getting it out there in some early version at least. Does that sound right? Is there anything else of just like where human brains will continue to be useful for at least the next few months?
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得人类仍然提供了一种模型所没有的常识水平。任何产品发布都有上千个活动部件。有些很小，但总有很多地方可能出问题。
**Cat Wu:** I think humans still provide a level of common sense that the models don't. And there's like a thousand moving pieces to any product launch. Some of them are very small, but there's always a lot that could potentially go wrong.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得模型并不总是很好地了解所有利益相关方是谁、他们之间的关系如何、他们各自的偏好是什么、用什么渠道和他们沟通才能让他们保持支持。我觉得很多这种更隐性的常识、情商方面的知识仍然非常有价值。当然，我们希望模型在这方面越来越好，我也相信会的，但目前我认为还有差距。
**Cat Wu:** I think the model doesn't always have a great sense of who all the stakeholders are, how they relate to each other, what their preferences are, what are the right venues to communicate with them to keep them on board. I think a lot of this like more tacit common sense, EQ kind of knowledge is still very valuable. Of course, we want the models to get better at this and I think they will be, but right now I think there's still gaps.
**Lenny：** 作为一个身处如此快速持续变化中的人，你怎么应对？在龙卷风内部——也许那里反而很平静——但你怎么跟上正在发生的一切？怎么在这种疯狂中保持理智？
**Lenny:** How do you just kind of deal as a human going through so much constant change -- just being on the inside of the tornado? Maybe it's calm there, but just like how do you stay on top of what's going on? How do you stay sane through all this craziness that we're moving through?
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得我们团队都是那种愿意拥抱混乱的人。我们试着微笑面对每一个挑战，因为总有太多事情在发生，总有太多风险和棘手的情况。如果你对每件事都压力太大，你就会精疲力竭。
**Cat Wu:** I think our team is full of people who lean into the chaos. So, we try to face every challenge with a smile because there's always so much going on. There's always so many risks and tricky situations that you know if you get too stressed about anything you'll burn out.
**Cat Wu：** 所以我们真的在寻找那些能看到一个挑战然后说"这会很难，但我很兴奋去攻克它，我会尽我所能做到最好，我知道我不会完美，但至少我晚上能安心入睡，因为我尽力了"的人。
**Cat Wu:** And so we really look for people who can kind of like look at a challenge, be like that's going to be hard but I'm excited to tackle it and I'm going to do the best that I possibly can and I know I won't be perfect but I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that I did my best.
**Lenny：** 这对于"在未来什么能力会重要"这个问题是一个有趣的回答。我忘了是谁说的——可能是 Ben Thompson——说这将是世界上最正常的时刻了。
**Lenny:** That's an interesting answer to just like what skills will be important in this future because -- I forget who said this, maybe Ben Thompson -- that this is the most normal the world will ever be.
**Cat Wu：** 是的，确实越来越难。我觉得很多个星期是这样的：周日晚上来了一个 P0（最高优先级问题），到周一又来了一个 P0，到周一下午来了一个 P0000。然后你就会想：天哪，真不敢相信我之前还那么担心周日那个 P0。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, it definitely gets harder. Like I feel like there are a lot of weeks where maybe Sunday night there's some like P0 and then by Monday there's like a P0 and by Monday afternoon there's a P0000 and you're like wow, I can't believe I was so worried about that P0 from Sunday.
**Cat Wu：** 但我觉得你必须承认，你能做的事情是有限的。你需要好好睡觉，这样第二天才能做出好的决策。然后要残酷地在时间分配上做取舍。什么是最重要的、必须做对的事？然后要能接受放手。
**Cat Wu:** But I think you just have to acknowledge that there's only so much that you can do, that you need to sleep well so that you can make good decisions next day and just like brutally prioritize where you spend your time. What's the most important thing to get right? And be okay letting things go.
**Cat Wu：** 我们发布的有些产品没有我希望的那么精致。但我们的首要目标是赋能专业开发者。如果一个产品不够成功，只要它没有阻碍核心使用场景，那就没关系。因为我们会收到反馈，然后在下一个版本修复。发布一个有 bug 的功能，以前是那种会让我夜不能寐的事。但现在我能接受了，因为我知道我们会快速收到反馈，然后在下一个版本修复。
**Cat Wu:** Like there's products that we ship that aren't as polished as I wish they were. But you know, our top goal is to help empower professional developers. And if a product isn't successful, as long as it's not blocking the core use case, it's okay because we'll hear the feedback and we'll fix it in the next release. Launching a feature that is buggy is the kind of thing that would have kept me up at night. But it is something that I am now able to live with knowing that okay, we're going to get that quick feedback and we're going to fix it in the next release.
**Lenny：** 我脑子里浮现的是那个 GIF 动图——我觉得可能是《加勒比海盗》里的——那个人在船上走下楼梯，整艘船正在被摧毁，到处都在崩塌，但他特别淡定，悠闲地走下来。这很有意思，因为我见过的每个 Anthropic 的人都是这样——特别淡定，特别乐观。
**Lenny:** What I'm imagining is there's that GIF, I think it's maybe from Pirates of the Caribbean, where it's this guy walking down a pair of stairs on a ship and the whole ship is just being demolished around him and he's so chill, just strolling down the staircases, everything's falling apart. And that's interesting because everyone I've met from Anthropic is just so chill and just so optimistic.
**Cat Wu：** 是的，我觉得这是一个很好的洞察——保持这种平静和乐观，而不是"天哪，一切都疯了"。如果你做不到这一点，你很快就会精疲力竭。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, I think that's a really interesting insight is just like having this calmness and optimism versus just like, oh my god, everything's crazy and going nuts. Yeah, I think if you don't have it, you'll get pretty burnt out.
**Cat Wu：** 我们也倾向于招聘在行业里有一定年资、经历过很多起伏的人。他们对什么给自己带来能量、如何长期维持能量有很好的感知，我觉得这对我们帮助很大。
**Cat Wu:** I think we also tend to hire people who have been in the industry for a while and have experienced lots of ups and downs and have a good sense for what gives them energy and how to maintain their energy over time and I think that's helped us a lot.
**Lenny：** 很有意思。我还想问一个事情。角色在模糊化，工程师变成 PM，大家的狗变成猫，所有人变成所有人。在这个世界里我们失去了什么？我们是否失去了清晰的职业阶梯和职业路径？是否失去了设计一致性、代码质量？肯定有一些代价吧。你觉得有哪些是我们为了更大的利益所做的牺牲？
**Lenny:** So interesting. Something that I wanted to ask about is so there's these roles blurring. Engineers are becoming PMs, everyone's dogs are cats, everyone's everyone. What do we lose in that world? Do we lose like career ladders and clear career paths? Do we lose design consistency, code quality? You know, there's probably some downsides. What are some things you find are just like, okay, that's something we're sacrificing for the greater good.
**Cat Wu：** 我们牺牲了产品一致性。过去，当写代码成本很高的时候，你会仔细规划产品体系中的每一个环节——每个产品之间如何关联、每个产品的使用场景是什么、它们如何整合。你基本上每个使用场景只对应一个产品。
**Cat Wu:** We're sacrificing product consistency. Historically, when code was expensive to write, you would carefully plan out everything in your product suite, how every product relates to each other, what the use case for every single one is, how they integrate, and you would pretty much have one product for each use case.
**Cat Wu：** 现在 AI 发展这么快，需要测试的想法这么多，我们有时候确实会出现功能相互重叠的情况。很多时候是因为我们内部喜欢两种形态，想让外部用户告诉我们哪个更好。
**Cat Wu:** And now with AI moving so quickly and with so many ideas that we need to test out, we do sometimes have features that overlap with each other. A lot of the times it's because there's two form factors that we love internally and we want the external audience to tell us which one is better.
**Cat Wu：** 但这对新用户来说意味着，他们可能不知道完成某件事的最佳路径是什么。我们需要做更多教育工作，帮助大家理解核心功能是什么以及使用最佳实践。我觉得这是大量发布功能的代价。
**Cat Wu:** What that means for someone who's a new user though is a new user might not know okay what is the best path to accomplish X. There is more education we need to do to help people understand what the core features are and what the best practices are for using them. I think this is the cost of launching a lot of features.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得用户也感觉很难跟上最新进展。传统产品管理中，你每月或每季度发布一个功能。用户很容易理解——我每个月关注一次就行了，能学到一些新东西。如果六个月不看也没关系，不会觉得错过什么。
**Cat Wu:** I think users also feel like it's hard to keep up with the latest. Usually in traditional PM you ship a feature every like month or quarter. And so it's really easy for a user to understand okay I just need to check in on this once a month and I'll learn some new things and if I ignore it for six months it's fine. I don't feel like I'm missing out.
**Cat Wu：** 但对于这些智能体（agentic）工具——不只是 Claude Code 和 Co-work，整个生态系统都是这样——大家觉得自己需要每天刷 Twitter 看最新动态。我觉得我们可以做更多事来减少大家的那种越来越快的跑步机的感觉。我希望大家能觉得打开这些工具就好了，工具会引导他们、教会他们想知道的东西，让他们觉得自己被带着一起往前走。
**Cat Wu:** I think with these agentic tools, not just Claude Code and Co-work, but like across the whole ecosystem, people feel this need to like check Twitter every single day to see what the absolute latest thing is. And I think there's more we can do to help people feel less like they're on this ever increasingly fast treadmill and that they feel like -- I would love people to feel like they can just open these tools. The tools will educate them or like teach them what they want to know and that they can just feel more brought along.
**Lenny：** 对了，我看到你们前几天发布了一个很有意思的功能。我记得叫 /powerup，它基本上会带你了解所有使用 Claude Code 的酷炫方式和最佳实践。这是沿着这个思路做的吗？
**Lenny:** Yeah, I saw you launch this really interesting feature the other day. I think it's /powerup where it basically walks you through all the cool ways and all basically all the best practices to use Claude Code. Is that kind of along these lines?
**Cat Wu：** 是的，没错。过去我们其实不想做 PowerUp 这样的东西，因为我们觉得产品应该直观到不需要任何教程。但随着时间推移，我们意识到功能实在太多了，而用户对内置引导体验的需求非常大。所以我们偏离了"不做引导流程"这个初始原则，加入了这个功能。因为实在太多用户想知道——有 100 个功能，哪 10 个是我绝对必须用的？所以我们把它整理出来了。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, exactly. So, in the past, we didn't actually want to do something like PowerUp because we felt like the product should be intuitive enough that you don't actually need to go through any tutorial. And over time, we've just realized that there's just so many features and there's so much demand for a built-in onboarding experience that we diverged a bit from our original principle saying no onboarding flow and added this because there's just so many users who wanted to know -- there's 100 features, what are the 10 that I absolutely need to use? And so we put that together.
**Lenny：** 这真是一个奇特的世界。Anthropic 在 B2B 企业市场非常成功，而传统上面对企业客户你不会一口气发布很多东西，一般是季度发布。但你们恰恰相反——每天都有新东西。
**Lenny:** Yeah, it's such a bizarre world. So Anthropic has been really successful with B2B enterprises where traditionally you don't launch a bunch of stuff. You just kind of have a quarterly release maybe and it's like the opposite -- every day we got something new.
**Lenny：** 沿着这个话题，Anthropic 的增长势头简直是超凡的。Anthropic 起步的时候远远落后。它是资金最少的公司之一。没有分发渠道。不是第一个入场的。OpenAI 遥遥领先。当时人们觉得 Anthropic 根本没有机会在长期显著竞争。现在势如破竹，在以巨大优势击败那些拥有更多资源的大公司和大团队。增长数据令人瞠目——一个月 110 亿美元的 ARR，百分比增长惊人。等到这期播出的时候可能更高了。作为内部人，你觉得是什么因素让 Anthropic 如此成功，能够从落后位置追上来做到这么好？
**Lenny:** So just maybe following that thread, the run Anthropic has been on is just otherworldly. Anthropic was way behind when it started. It was one of the least funded companies. Didn't have distribution. Wasn't the first to go. OpenAI was way ahead. It was just like no way Anthropic has any chance to compete significantly long term. Now it's just killing it, just beating the biggest companies and teams with so much -- just like the growth is just like 11 billion dollars in ARR in one month, percent growth. By the time this comes out it'll probably be even higher. Just being on the inside, what are some ingredients that have allowed Anthropic to be this successful and kind of come from behind and do this well?
**Cat Wu：** 最重要的两件事——第一是统一的使命。很难表达这有多重要。我们招的是那些最关心将安全的通用人工智能（AGI）带给全人类的人。这实际上是我们在决策中经常引用的东西——我们的整个产品线应该专注于发布什么。
**Cat Wu:** The two most important things are -- one, this unifying mission. It's hard to state how important this is. We hire people who care most about bringing safe AGI to all of humanity. And this is actually something that we reference frequently in our decisions about what our entire product suite should focus on shipping.
**Cat Wu：** 正因为我们把这个使命放在任何单一产品线之上，我们能够非常快速地做出跨越整个组织的决策，然后以统一的方式去执行。我觉得这是我在这个规模的公司从未见过的。
**Cat Wu:** And because we put this like mission above any individual product line, we're able to make very fast decisions that cut across the entire org and like execute on them in a unified way. So I think this is something that I've never seen at a company of our scale.
**Lenny：** 让我确认一下你的意思。所以，本质上第一使命是安全对齐（safety alignment），确保 AI 对世界有益。你是说，仅仅因为有这样一个清晰的使命，就让很多决策变得容易多了。
**Lenny:** And so just to make sure that's clear. So essentially having the number one mission is safety alignment, making sure AI is good for the world. And you're saying just having that as a clear mission makes decisions a lot easier to make.
**Cat Wu：** 如果有两个相互竞争的优先级，我们就讨论哪个对 Anthropic 的使命更重要。这让决策变得容易很多。然后每个人都会支持最终选定的那个。所以有时候这意味着，我们想在 Claude Code 上发布某个东西，但另一件事更重要。于是我们就把发布这个东西推迟，等以后再做。
**Cat Wu:** If there's two competing priorities, we'll talk about which one is more important for Anthropic's mission. And it makes it a lot easier to decide which of the two we prioritize. And then everyone will stand behind the one that we decide. And so sometimes that means that like, hey, we want to ship something on Claude Code, but this other thing is more important. And so we deprioritize shipping this and we just wait until later.
**Lenny：** 这一点非常有意思，因为它解释了——我想对比另一家公司，名字和"Bopen BI"押韵——它做了很多不同的事情。而我从你这里听到的本质上是：我们不会去做社交网络，不会去做信息流，因为这不符合使命。这让 Anthropic 保持了专注，而专注似乎是成功的核心要素。
**Lenny:** What's really interesting about that is that explains -- I think versus another company, maybe rhymes with "Bopen BI" -- did a lot of different things. And what I'm hearing here essentially is like okay we're not going to launch a social network, we're not going to launch a feed of interesting information because it's not aligned to this mission and that has kept Anthropic focused which seems to be a core ingredient to the success.
**Cat Wu：** 当我想到使命的时候，我想到的是把 Anthropic 的目标放在任何个人或任何单一产品之上。所以在我看来，第二件我们做得非常好的事是专注。使命和专注在我看来略有不同。使命意味着团队愿意做出牺牲，即使这些牺牲会损害自己的目标和 OKR，只要是服务于 Anthropic 的目标和 OKR。而大家是非常乐意做这些取舍的。
**Cat Wu:** Well, when I think about mission I think about putting Anthropic's goals ahead of any individual or any individual product. And so for me, I think the second thing that we're very good at is focus. I think mission to me is slightly different. Mission means that teams are willing to make sacrifices that hurt their own goals and their own OKRs in service of Anthropic's goals and Anthropic's OKRs. And people are very happy to make those trade-offs.
**Cat Wu：** 举个极端的例子：如果 Claude Code 失败了，但 Anthropic 成功了，我会非常开心。整个团队都非常愿意做出符合这种思路的决策。
**Cat Wu:** So like an extreme example is if Claude Code failed but Anthropic succeeded I would be extremely happy and like the whole team is very willing to make decisions that follow that chain of thought.
**Lenny：** 我不知道你能不能深入谈这个。你觉得 Open Claude 的决定是不是这个思路的一部分——就是说，这不符合 Anthropic 的使命，我们需要停止这个，因为它没有按我们想要的方式运作？
**Lenny:** I don't know if you can talk about this in depth but do you feel like the Open Claude decision is a part of this -- just like okay this is not furthering the mission of Anthropic, we need to stop this because it's not working in the way we want it to work?
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得对 Anthropic 最重要的事情之一是增加我们能触达的用户数量。实现这一点的方式之一是通过 Claude 订阅和我们的第一方产品。所以我们非常想加倍投入这一块，但这有时确实会以牺牲第三方产品为代价。
**Cat Wu:** I think one of the most important things for Anthropic is to grow the number of users that we're able to reach. One of the ways that we're able to do this is with the Claude subscriptions with our first party products and so we just very much want to double down on that, but that does come at the expense of third party products sometimes.
**Lenny：** 我们一直在聊 Claude、Co-work 和各种工具。有一件事我想确保大家理解，我也很好奇你自己怎么使用这些工具。有 Claude Code、Claude Desktop、Co-work。怎么理解什么时候用哪个？你分别在什么时候用这三个？
**Lenny:** So we've been talking about Claude, Co-work, all these things. Something that I want to make sure people get and I'm curious just how you use these tools. So there's Claude Code, there's Claude Desktop, there's Co-work. What's the best way to understand when to use which? When do you use each of these three?
**Cat Wu：** 我倾向于在终端使用 Claude Code，当我只是想启动一个一次性的编程任务，而且想要所有最新功能的时候。CLI（命令行界面）是我们最初的产品界面，也是功能通常最先上线的地方，所以它是所有工具中最强大的。当我一次只想启动一个或几个任务的时候，我通常用它。
**Cat Wu:** So, I tend to use Claude Code in the terminal when I'm just kicking off like a one-off coding task and I want all of the latest features. The CLI is our initial product surface and it's also the one where our features often land first and so it's the most powerful of all the tools. So that's what I tend to use when I'm just like trying to kick off one or maybe a handful of tasks at a time.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得 Desktop 在做需要前端工作的事情时特别出色。我特别喜欢的一个用法是使用预览功能。如果我在做一个 Web 应用，我会同时用 Claude Code 和 Desktop。把预览面板开在右边，这样我就能实时看到我正在构建的 Web 应用，一边聊天一边看效果。
**Cat Wu:** I think desktop really shines when you're doing something that requires front-end work. And so one thing that I love to do is to use our preview feature. So if I'm building a web app, I'll often use Claude Code and desktop. I'll have the preview pane open on the right hand side so that I can actually see the web app that I'm making in real time as I'm chatting with Claude.
**Cat Wu：** 对于想要更图形化界面的人来说，Desktop 也很棒。终端对非技术人员来说可能很不熟悉。你会在电脑上看到一堆吓人的弹窗，也没法像其他所有产品一样到处点击。很多人在终端里就是不自在。如果你是这种情况，我强烈推荐试试 Claude Code on Desktop。
**Cat Wu:** It's also really great for people who want something a bit more graphical. A terminal can feel very unfamiliar to someone who's nontechnical. You get a bunch of these like scary popups on your machine and you can't click around the way that you're used to in pretty much every other product that you use. So, there's a lot of people who just don't feel comfortable in terminal. And if that's you, I would highly recommend checking out Claude Code on desktop.
**Cat Wu：** Desktop 还非常适合一目了然地查看所有正在进行的任务。你可以在 Desktop 里看到你的 CLI 终端会话，看到其他 Desktop 会话，看到你在网页和移动端启动的会话。所以它是一个一站式控制面板，你可以看到你所有的任务。
**Cat Wu:** Desktop is also great for getting an at-a-glance view of everything that's happening. So you can see your CLI terminal sessions in desktop. You can see your other desktop sessions. You can see your sessions that you kicked off on web and mobile. So it's a one-stop control plane where you can see all of your tasks.
**Cat Wu：** 网页和移动端的好处是非常适合随时随地启动任务。CLI 和 Desktop 都需要你在本地笔记本电脑上操作。这是一个限制，因为有时候你在外面，在晒太阳，在散步，没有打开笔记本电脑。我数不清有多少人我见过拿着打开的笔记本电脑、连着手机热点走在外面。这说明我们缺少一个能满足这种需求的产品。所以对我来说，移动端的意义就是让你在路上也能启动任务，不需要到哪里都带着笔记本电脑、确保笔记本电脑是打开的。
**Cat Wu:** I think the benefit of web and mobile is that it's really great for kicking things off on the go. So CLI and desktop both require you to be on your local laptop. And this is constraining because sometimes you're out and about, you're like touching grass, you're going on a walk and you don't have your laptop open. And I can't count the number of people who I've seen like holding their laptop open, tethered to their phone while they're outside. And this just means that we're missing a product that solves that need. And so for me, what mobile lets you do is kick off these tasks on the go so that you don't need to bring your laptop everywhere and make sure that your laptop's open wherever you are.
**Lenny：** 我太喜欢这一点了。我在飞机上见过这样的人——现在简直是一个梗了。我必须等完成，让这个代理跑完。我不能关机。我需要 Wi-Fi。
**Lenny:** I love that. I've seen people on planes like -- it's just such a meme now. Just I need to finish, let this agent finish. I can't shut this down. I need Wi-Fi.
**Cat Wu：** 说到 Co-work，它填补的角色是：每个人都有很多工作，其产出不是代码。不管是清空 Slack 消息还是清空收件箱，是为即将到来的客户会议制作幻灯片，还是写一份关于功能目标或上线计划的简要文档。所有这些任务的产出都不是代码，Co-work 最适合处理这些。
**Cat Wu:** And then I think for Co-work, the role that this fills is there's a lot of work that everyone does where the output isn't code. So whether that's like getting to Slack zero or inbox zero or whether that's creating a slide deck for some customer meeting that's coming up or whether that's writing a quick doc on what the goals of a feature are or what the launch plan for a feature is. All these tasks produce outputs that are non-code and Co-work is best positioned for that.
**Cat Wu：** 所以我在脑子里是这样划分产品的：如果我做的事情产出是代码，我就用 Claude Code、Desktop 或移动端的 Claude Code。如果产出不是代码，我就用 Co-work。
**Cat Wu:** So the way that I split the products in my mind is if I'm building something where the output is code, I'll use Claude Code or desktop or Claude Code on mobile. And if the output is anything that's not code, I'll use Co-work for it.
**Lenny：** 大家真的低估了 Co-work 的成功。它增长得非常快，但我觉得很多人可能还不太理解它是做什么的。能不能给我们举几个你在 PM 工作中使用 Co-work 的案例？有哪些特别有趣的、甚至意想不到的方式帮你节省时间、完成更多工作？
**Lenny:** People are just sleeping on the success that Co-work is having. It's just growing incredibly fast and I think people still don't understand maybe what it's for. And so what if you give us a couple use cases just in your work as a PM? What are some like really interesting maybe unexpected ways you use Co-work to save you time, get more work done?
**Cat Wu：** 如果你刚开始使用 Co-work，首先要做的事就是连接所有与你角色相关的数据源，因为 Co-work 只有在获取到足够多的上下文时才能做好工作。对我来说，这意味着连接 Google Calendar、Slack、Gmail、Google Drive，这样它就有灵活性去找到相关上下文、提出问题、引入相关对话，这大幅提升了输出质量。
**Cat Wu:** If you're getting started on Co-work, the first thing that you really need to do is connect all the data sources that are relevant to your role because Co-work can only do a great job if it has access to all the context that it needs to be able to curate the output for you. So what that means for me is I connect it to my Google Calendar. I connect it to my Slack, to my Gmail, to my Google Drive so that it just knows -- it has the flexibility to find relevant context, to ask questions, to pull in threads and this substantially improves the quality of the result.
**Cat Wu：** 我用它做的事情包括——昨晚我就在做一个。我们有一个即将到来的 Code with Claude 会议，我有几个演讲要做。其中一个讲的是 Claude Code 从助手到完整代理的转变。我想在这个演讲中展示我们发布的所有推动这个转变的产品，同时找出大家在内部使用中有哪些成功案例可以用作演示。
**Cat Wu:** The kinds of things I use it for are -- like last night I was working on this. We have this Code with Claude conference coming up and there's a few talks that I'm giving there and one of the talks that we're doing talks about the transition of Claude Code from an assistant to like a full-on agent. And one of the things that I wanted to do in this talk was to showcase all of the products that we've been shipping that enable this transition and also to figure out okay what are the success stories that people have had internally that we can use as demos.
**Cat Wu：** 我连接了 Google Drive 和 Slack。我们的产品市场推广（PMM）Alex 整理了一份他认为应该涵盖的要点草稿。所以我把这些全部输入 Co-work。我告诉 Co-work 我想讲述的叙事线。然后它实际上工作了一个小时。
**Cat Wu:** And so I have my Google Drive connected, I have Slack connected. Alex, who's our product marketer, put together like a draft of what the points that he thinks we should cover are. And so I just fed this all into Co-work. I told Co-work the narrative that I want to tell. And it actually just worked for an hour.
**Cat Wu：** 它浏览了 Twitter 看我们发布了什么。它查看了我们的常设发布频道。它查看了我们的 Claude Code 公告频道——团队成员在那里发布他们从 Claude Code 中获得最大价值的演示。然后它把这些全部综合成了一份 20 页的幻灯片。今天早上我醒来看到它，读了一遍，质量相当不错。
**Cat Wu:** It walked through Twitter to see what we launched. It looked through our evergreen launch room. It looked in our Claude Code announce channel, which is where our team posts demos of how they've been getting the most value out of Claude Code. And it synthesized all this together into this 20-page deck that I woke up to this morning and I read through it and it was like pretty good.
**Cat Wu：** 有几处需要调整，所以我确实给了一轮反馈。我喜欢幻灯片上文字极少，而它做的稍微有点词多。但它确实比我自己能做的快得多。而且因为 Co-work 能访问我们整个设计系统，它做出来的看起来真的像 Anthropic 的设计师做的。视觉上看，你会说"哇，这非常精致"。
**Cat Wu:** There were a few tweaks, so I did have to give it a round of feedback. I like my slides to have extremely minimal words and it was a little too wordy, but you know, it was far faster than what I would be able to produce. And because Co-work has access to our whole design system, it actually looks like an Anthropic designer put it together. Like when you visually see it, you're like, "Oh, this is incredibly polished."
**Cat Wu：** 所以这类事情快太多了。做这份幻灯片要花我好几个小时，但它做出了一份质量相当好的初稿，让我可以把精力放在确保演示效果出色上。
**Cat Wu:** So these are the kinds of things that are so much faster. Like this -- making this slide deck would have taken me hours, but instead it turns out a draft that is actually quite good so I could focus on making sure that the demos are amazing that we plug into it.
**Lenny：** 这简直是 PM 的梦想成真。做幻灯片太烦人了。
**Lenny:** This sounds like a dream come true to PMs. Putting decks together is so annoying.
**Cat Wu：** 太慢了。
**Cat Wu:** It's so slow.
**Lenny：** 大家会在你做演讲的时候看到这份幻灯片。显然这不是一次生成的版本，你迭代过了。为了帮助大家自己试试——第一步是连接各种数据源。你说了 Slack。你还建议连什么？
**Lenny:** And people will see this deck whenever you present this. This will be out in the world. Obviously it's not the one-shotted version, but you've iterated on it. So just to help people try this for themselves -- step one is connect their -- what did you say? Slack. What else do you suggest they connect?
**Cat Wu：** Slack、Google Calendar、Gmail、Google Drive。你应该连接你的通讯工具和你存储团队工作真实数据（source of truth）的地方——也就是团队关心什么、你关心什么、你在做什么。
**Cat Wu:** Slack, Google Calendar, Gmail, Google Drive. You should connect your communications tools and where you store your source of truth data for what your team cares about, what you care about, and what you're working on.
**Lenny：** 好的。那你大致用了什么提示词来生成这个幻灯片？
**Lenny:** Okay. And then what was the prompt roughly that you put in there to generate this deck?
**Cat Wu：** 我就写了"帮我做一个 Code with Claude 会议的幻灯片。这是我们 PMM 建议应该涵盖的内容。这是我做的一个目前不太满意的草稿"——是我手动做的那个，我不太满意，但我附上了链接。"你能不能先创建一个带细节的大纲提案？另外，确保和主旨演讲不要有太多重叠，那个更重要。"
**Cat Wu:** So I just wrote "make me a slide deck for the Code with Claude conference. This is what our PMM suggested it should cover. This is the current draft that I made that I don't like." This is one that I made manually that I don't like, but I linked it. "Can you start by creating a proposed outline with details? Also, make sure it doesn't overlap too much with a keynote talk, which is more important."
**Cat Wu：** 然后 Claude 阅读了我发给它的一堆链接，创建了一份大纲提案。接着我读了它的提案和它生成的各种关于我们可以涵盖什么内容的想法，然后我做了决定——最终幻灯片里到底放什么。
**Cat Wu:** And then Claude read a bunch of the links that I sent to it and created a proposed outline. So then I read through its proposal and all the different ideas that it had generated for what we could cover and I just made a decision on what I wanted to actually be in the final deck.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得这就是 PM 角色在今天仍然存在的一个例子。Claude 是一个很好的头脑风暴伙伴。它能够非常快速地综合大量信息，把所有可能性呈现给你。但 PM 的角色仍然是做最终决定——最终产品里应该放什么。
**Cat Wu:** And I think this is like an example of what the role of the PM still is today. It's like Claude is a great brainstorming partner. It's able to synthesize a massive amount of information really quickly and present all of the possibilities to you. But the role of the PM is still to make the end decision of okay what should belong in the final product.
**Cat Wu：** 所以对于这个幻灯片，我最终决定的是：我希望演讲涵盖从让本地任务成功，到让每个 PR 都通过，到帮助工程师提交更多 PR 的这个进程。对于每一个阶段，哪个演示最有说服力。在做了这个大纲决定之后，Co-work 就跑了几个小时，把整个幻灯片都做出来了。
**Cat Wu:** So for this what I ended up deciding was that I wanted the talk to cover the progression from making local tasks successful to making every PR green to helping engineers land more PRs. And for each of these, which demo would be the most compelling. And then after this decision about the outline, Co-work just went off for a few hours and built the whole slide deck.
**Lenny：** 太棒了。不用做的工作里这是最棒的一部分。感觉就像你在和一个幻灯片设计师对话，但这个设计师同时还真正了解你做过什么，能让内容确实是你想要的，而不只是让它看起来漂亮。
**Lenny:** This is so awesome. What an awesome part of the job to not have to do anymore. And it feels like you're talking to essentially a deck designer that also has like actual knowledge about what you've worked on and can like make it actually the content what you want it to be, not just make it look really nice.
**Lenny：** 设计系统那部分你是怎么做的？它怎么知道 Anthropic 的设计系统？
**Lenny:** How did you do the design system piece? How does that work? How does it know the design system of Anthropic?
**Cat Wu：** 我的做法是，我们其实已经有一套标准化的幻灯片模板，用于所有对外演讲。所以我直接给 Claude 访问权限。这样它就能看到我们用什么颜色、什么字体、有哪些不同类型的——怎么说来着——幻灯片版式。它有大约 20 个示例幻灯片。
**Cat Wu:** So what I did for this is we actually already have like a standardized deck that we use across all of our external engagements. And so I just gave Claude access to that. And so it's able to see like what colors we use, what fonts we use, the different kinds of -- what's it called? -- like slide formats that are possible. And so it has like 20 of these example slides.
**Lenny：** 就是上传示例。明白了。你就是说"这是我们的模板，基于这个来做。"
**Lenny:** Give an example. Got it. So you like upload "here's our template, work from this."
**Cat Wu：** 是的。你也可以连接 Figma MCP，如果你的幻灯片模板存在那里的话，它可以从那里拉取。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. You can also connect to like your Figma MCP if you have your slide format saved there and it can pull that in.
**Lenny：** 沿着这个话题，我一直很好奇的是作为 Anthropic 的 PM，你的工具栈是什么？当然有 Claude Code、Co-work 和所有 Anthropic 的工具。还在用什么？你提到了 Slack。还有什么？
**Lenny:** Along those lines, something I'm always curious about is what's kind of in your stack of tools as a PM at Anthropic? Obviously Claude Code and Co-work and all the Anthropic tools. What else are you using? What are the -- Slack you mentioned. Is there anything else?
**Cat Wu：** 我的工具栈主要就是 Claude Code 和 Co-work。Anthropic 基本上运行在 Slack 上。我觉得 Slack 就像我们公司的核心操作系统。日常大概 30% 的时间我在探索 Co-work 的能力边界，这样我对我们哪里做得不好有很强的感觉。我还花很多时间和模型对话，理解它为什么会犯它所犯的那些错误。
**Cat Wu:** So my stack is pretty heavily Claude Code, Co-work. Anthropic largely runs on Slack. I feel like it's like the core OS of our company. And day-to-day like maybe 30% of my time is pushing the boundaries of what Co-work can do so that I have a very strong sense of what we're not good at. And I spend a lot of time talking with the model to understand why it makes mistakes that it does.
**Cat Wu：** 我们内部其实做了很多自研工具。我觉得 Claude Code 真正为我们整个公司解锁的一件事是，它大大降低了制作任何自定义应用的门槛。所以我们看到个性化工作软件激增——大家针对自己的特定使用场景自己构建工具，而不是用那些不完全契合需求的现有工具。
**Cat Wu:** We actually have a lot of internal tools that we make. Like I think one of the things that Claude Code has really unlocked for our entire company is it really lowers the barrier to making any custom app that you want. And so we've seen this surge in personalized work software that people are building for custom use cases instead of using tools that don't perfectly fit the use case.
**Lenny：** 我得听更多。能举几个例子吗？你和其他人做了什么特别受欢迎和好用的工具？
**Lenny:** I got to hear more. What are some examples? What are things you've built, other people built, that are really popular and useful?
**Cat Wu：** 我们 Claude Code 销售团队的一个人发现自己在反复制作重复的幻灯片。所以他做了一个 Web 应用，里面有我们核心的 Claude Code 幻灯片模板——入门版（101）、进阶版（201）和精通版。然后他有一种方式可以输入具体的客户背景信息，从 Salesforce、Gong 和其他笔记中提取数据，从而为特定客户定制幻灯片。
**Cat Wu:** One of the sales folks on Claude Code, he realized he was making these like repetitive decks over and over and over again. And so he actually has this web app that he built with the examples of the core Claude Code decks that we know work well. So like a 101, 201, and mastering Claude Code. And then he has a way to input specific customer context that pulls from Salesforce, that pulls from Gong, that pulls from other notes so that we can customize the decks for specific customers.
**Cat Wu：** 它会提取这样的信息：比如这个客户使用 Bedrock 还是 Claude for Enterprise 还是 Console，这影响到哪些功能可用。它会提取比如这个客户关心软件开发生命周期（SDLC）中代码审查阶段的信息，那就加一页关于我们代码审查功能的幻灯片。它会提取比如这个客户需要 HIPAA 合规或者某某安全控制的信息，那就确保加一两页关于这些的内容。如果这是一个使用 Vertex 或 Bedrock、不想用 Claude for Enterprise 的客户，那就把只有 Claude for Enterprise 才有的功能幻灯片去掉。通常这种工作需要 20 到 30 分钟的手动操作，所以大家要么花时间做，要么干脆不做，直接用通用版幻灯片。有了这个工具，只要几秒钟就能得到一份定制幻灯片。
**Cat Wu:** And so it'll pull out things like okay this customer is using like Bedrock or Claude for Enterprise or Console which affects what features are available to them. It will pull out things like okay this customer is concerned about like the code review stage of the SDLC. And so we'll add a slide about our code review features there. It'll pull out things like okay this customer needs to be like HIPAA compliant or needs XYZ security controls. And so we'll make sure to add a slide or two in their deck about that. And then for example, if this is a customer that's on Vertex or Bedrock and doesn't want to use Claude for Enterprise, then we'll just take out some of the slides that are Claude for Enterprise only features. And so normally this is like manual work that could take 20, 30 minutes and so people either like spend that time doing it or they'll just decide not to do it and use the general deck. With this it takes like a few seconds and you get a tailored deck.
**Lenny：** 有意思。Slack 就是那种没有人试图取代的工具。大家都不想自己做一个。Slack 就是一直在赢。你描述它的方式——它就是那么多公司的操作系统。很有意思，大家都在说 Salesforce 那种 SaaS——我们不再需要 SaaS 了，我们要自己做。但 Slack 是一个持久的工具，没有人想去竞争或做一个更好的版本。
**Lenny:** What's interesting about it's like Slack is like the tool that nobody's -- it's just like nobody's trying to create their own. Slack just continues to win and it's just like the way you describe it is kind of the OS of so many companies. It's so interesting like people talk about Salesforce as just like SaaS. We don't need SaaS software anymore. We're going to build our own. It's like Slack is a durable tool that nobody wants to try to compete with and build a better version.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得它是非常重要的通讯基础设施。在帮助每个人获取实时动态这件核心事情上，他们做得非常好。
**Cat Wu:** I think it's pretty important communications infrastructure and I think they do the core task of helping everyone get real-time updates incredibly well.
**Lenny：** 是的。大家吐槽 Slack，但它确实在做它想做的事情上很出色。最前沿的团队都离不开它。太有意思了。
**Lenny:** Yeah. Like people hate on Slack, but it's really great at what it's trying to do and like the most cutting edge teams are hooked on it. So interesting.
**Cat Wu：** 是的。而且我也很喜欢他们把定制做得那么方便。我们很喜欢做 Slack bot（机器人），这种可定制性（hackability）意味着我们能按自己想要的方式和 Slack 集成。非常感谢 Slack 在这方面的工作。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. And I also love how easy they've made it to customize it. And so we love making Slack bots and this kind of like hackability means that we're able to integrate with Slack the way that we want to. So really appreciate Slack's work on that.
**Lenny：** 是的。我也很喜欢他们把定制化做得如此简单。我们很爱做 Slack 机器人，这种可编程性意味着我们能够按照自己想要的方式与 Slack 集成。所以非常感谢 Slack 团队在这方面的工作。
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**Lenny:** Okay. So you talked about all these different teams and how they use Claude Code and Co-work to operate. Which teams do you find other than engineering? I imagine engineering is the biggest token spender, but if not that'd be really interesting. What's kind of like the second place function right now for tokens?
**Cat Wu：** 好的。你之前提到了各个团队以及他们如何使用 Claude Code 和 Co-work 来运作。除了工程团队之外，你觉得哪些团队用得最多？我猜工程团队是最大的 token（令牌）消耗者，但如果不是的话那就更有趣了。目前 token 消耗排第二的是哪个部门？
**Cat Wu:** Oh, applied AI is amazing at pushing the boundaries of what Claude Code and Co-work can do. A lot of our applied AI team spends time with our customers helping them adopt our API. And so sometimes our applied team will for example make prototypes on behalf of these customers which Claude Code makes so much faster than it used to be. They also have the dual goal of needing to manage a lot of customer comms, a lot of like customer inbound and historical context call notes. And so they're both extremely heavy on Co-work and on Claude Code.
**Lenny：** 应用 AI（Applied AI）团队在推动 Claude Code 和 Co-work 的能力边界方面非常厉害。我们很多应用 AI 团队的成员花大量时间与客户合作，帮助他们采用我们的 API。所以有时候应用团队会代替客户制作原型，而 Claude Code 让这个过程比以前快得多。他们还有一个双重目标：需要管理大量客户沟通、大量客户来信和历史背景通话记录。所以他们在 Co-work 和 Claude Code 上的使用都非常重。
**Lenny:** And just to understand applied AI, is that like a forward deployed engineering sort of role? Like what do they -- how would you -- how would most people describe what the applied AI team is doing?
**Cat Wu：** 帮我理解一下应用 AI 团队——这类似于前置部署工程师（Forward Deployed Engineer）那种角色吗？大多数人会怎么描述应用 AI 团队在做什么？
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, it's helping our customers adopt the latest API and model features across their company both for powering their company's products and also for internal acceleration.
**Lenny：** 是的，他们帮助客户在整个公司范围内采用最新的 API 和模型功能，既用于驱动客户自己的产品，也用于内部提效。
**Lenny:** Got it. So it's like customer success, go-to-market-y kind of like forward deployed engineering sort of.
**Cat Wu：** 明白了。所以相当于客户成功、市场推广类的前置部署工程角色。
**Cat Wu:** Exactly. It's like a very technical go-to-market person.
**Lenny：** 没错。可以理解为技术能力非常强的市场推广人员。
**Lenny:** Got it. Okay. Awesome. So that's -- so you're saying that might be the second org that uses the most tokens.
**Cat Wu：** 明白了。好的。那你是说这可能是 token 使用量排第二的团队。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. And then we also see them pushing the boundaries of what Co-work can do. So for example, a lot of these folks cover multiple customers and in any given day can have like five to 10 customer engagements on a high day. And so what they often use Co-work to do is the night before they'll ask it to summarize, okay, what are all my customer meetings that are coming up the next day? What are all the things that this customer has asked me for? What's top of mind for them? What are the action items from the past meetings?
**Cat Wu：** 是的。而且我们还看到他们在推动 Co-work 能力的边界。比如，这些同事很多人同时负责多个客户，某一天可能有五到十个客户会议。他们经常在前一天晚上用 Co-work 帮忙总结：明天有哪些客户会议？这个客户都提了哪些需求？他们最关心什么？过去会议的待办事项有哪些？
**Cat Wu:** And Co-work will just put together this like dossier, this like brief of what they should be aware of going into the next meeting. And Co-work can also research answers. So if a customer asked okay when is feature X going to launch, Co-work can help the applied AI person research through Slack to get the latest ETA, add that to the notes so that during the customer call the applied AI person has the absolute latest. And these are just workflows that people are building for themselves and sharing with other people on their team.
**Lenny：** Co-work 会整理出一份简报——一份他们在下次会议前应该了解的要点汇总。Co-work 还可以帮忙调研问题。比如客户问某个功能什么时候上线，Co-work 可以帮应用 AI 的同事在 Slack 里调查最新的预计时间，加到笔记里，这样在客户电话时他们就掌握了最新信息。这些都是大家自行构建然后在团队内分享的工作流。
**Lenny:** So cool. Something that kind of -- this question, this trend comes up a lot recently which is token spend exceeding people's salary where people just use AI and it costs more than how much they're making. Are there any numbers floating around Anthropic of just like how much token spend say engineers spend, I don't know, a month, a day, PMs, anything like that?
**Cat Wu：** 太酷了。有个话题最近经常被提起——token 花费超过员工工资，就是说人们使用 AI 的成本比他们的薪水还高。Anthropic 内部有没有一些数据，比如工程师或 PM 每月、每天大概花多少 token？
**Cat Wu:** It is clear to us that as the models get better people delegate far more tasks to it and they spend a lot more hours in tools like Claude Code and Co-work. And so we do see the token cost per engineer or like per any knowledge worker increase every time that there's a model jump or like a substantial product improvement. I think it's still much lower than what the average engineer salary is, but we see the percentage increasing over time.
**Lenny：** 我们很明确地看到，随着模型变得更强，人们委托给它的任务大幅增加，在 Claude Code 和 Co-work 上花的时间也多了很多。所以每次模型有重大升级或产品有显著改进时，每位工程师或知识工作者的 token 成本都会增加。我觉得目前还远低于工程师的平均薪资，但这个比例确实在持续上升。
**Lenny:** It's such an interesting -- like we talked about how you have access to the most cutting edge models and another advantage of working at Anthropic. I believe you guys have basically unlimited tokens. You don't -- you can use as much as you want. Is that right?
**Cat Wu：** 这真是个有意思的话题——我们之前聊过你们能接触到最前沿的模型，这是在 Anthropic 工作的另一个优势。我记得你们基本上有无限的 token 额度，想用多少就用多少，对吧？
**Cat Wu:** We can use a lot of tokens. Some people do run into limits. So--
**Lenny：** 我们确实可以使用很多 token。不过有些人确实会触到限制。
**Lenny:** Okay, there's a limit. Okay, Boris, shut it down. Like, it's so interesting how many advantages come from having the most advanced model. It's such an interesting like flywheel that starts to kick in.
**Cat Wu：** 好吧，还是有限制的。Boris，关掉吧。真的很有意思，拥有最先进的模型带来了多少优势。这个飞轮效应开始发力了。
**Cat Wu:** I think we also believe a lot in empowering our internal teams to build as fast as possible. And we also trust that everyone understands how much capacity that serving these models truly costs. And we trust our team to use the tokens responsibly. So, it's very frowned upon to waste tokens, but we do trust individuals to make that judgment call.
**Lenny：** 我觉得我们也非常相信应该赋能内部团队尽可能快地构建。同时我们也信任每个人都理解模型服务真正的算力成本。我们信任团队负责任地使用 token。浪费 token 是非常不被认可的，但我们信任每个人自己做出这个判断。
**Lenny:** Awesome. Coming back to the PM role, you talked -- we talked a little bit about this, but I think this will be really interesting for people to hear. Just what I want to understand is what do you think are the kind of the emerging skills that PMs need to develop slash you most look for, AI companies most look for, when they're hiring PMs these days?
**Cat Wu：** 很好。回到 PM 的角色，我们之前简单聊过这个话题，我觉得大家会很感兴趣。我想了解的是，你认为 PM 需要培养的新兴技能是什么？或者说你最看重的、AI 公司在招聘 PM 时最看重的能力是什么？
**Cat Wu:** I think the hardest skill is being able to define what the product should look like a month from now. I think there's a lot of ambiguity in what models are capable of in that timeline and how user behavior will change. But I think there are patterns that the best PMs can see based on how users are abusing the limits of the existing product. And the best PMs can sense that, can set a direction, and can steadily execute towards it and change the path if the model capabilities are much better than or worse than what they had originally expected.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得最难的技能是能够定义一个月后产品应该是什么样子。模型在那个时间范围内能做到什么、用户行为会怎么变化，这些都有很大的不确定性。但最优秀的 PM 能从用户如何在现有产品的限制边缘挣扎中看出规律。最好的 PM 能感知到这些信号，设定方向，稳步执行，并且在模型能力比预期强得多或弱得多时调整路径。
**Cat Wu:** I think it is very hard to be the right amount of AGI pilled because I think everyone can see this like this future where the models are extremely smart and can do almost everything in which case you actually don't need that complicated a product. You can actually just have a text box again where you tell the model what you want. And it's so smart that it can add any tool or add any integration that it needs to like get the job done. It knows when it's uncertain and it can ask clarifying questions. Like it's kind of very easy to build the product for the super AGI strong model.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得很难把握"AGI 信仰"的适度程度。因为每个人都能看到那个未来——模型极其聪明，几乎什么都能做，那种情况下其实不需要多复杂的产品。你甚至可以再次回到一个文本框，告诉模型你想要什么，它足够聪明，可以自己添加任何工具或集成来完成任务。它知道什么时候不确定，可以提出澄清问题。为超级 AGI 级别的强模型设计产品其实很容易。
**Cat Wu:** I think the hard thing is figuring out for the current model, how do you elicit the maximum capability? How do you help users get onto the golden path? How do you guide users to interact with the model's strengths and like patch its weaknesses? This skill is like pretty rare.
**Lenny：** 难的是针对当前模型，如何最大限度地激发它的能力？如何帮助用户走上最佳路径（golden path）？如何引导用户与模型的优势互动，同时弥补它的弱点？这种技能相当稀缺。
**Lenny:** And how do you build that skill? Is it just using each -- like basically understanding the limits of each model, having like you talked about taste, understanding, having taste into what the model maybe is capable of, what it's great and not great at, where it's changed.
**Cat Wu：** 那怎么培养这种技能呢？是通过使用每一代模型来理解它的边界吗？就像你说的品味（taste），理解模型可能能做什么、擅长什么、不擅长什么、发生了什么变化。
**Cat Wu:** I think it's spending a ton of time talking and using the model. One of the things I really like to do is to ask the model to introspect on its own behaviors. So sometimes when I notice that the model does something unexpected, like for example, there's like situations where the model will make a front-end change and run tests but not actually use the UI. It's actually pretty useful to ask the model to reflect on why it did this.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得关键是花大量时间与模型对话和使用模型。我特别喜欢做的一件事是让模型反省自己的行为。有时候我注意到模型做了出乎意料的事情——比如模型会改前端代码、跑测试，但不去实际看 UI 效果。让模型反思它为什么这么做其实很有用。
**Cat Wu:** And sometimes they'll say that hey there was like something confusing in the system prompt or I didn't realize that the front-end verification was like part of this task or hey I delegated the verification to this sub-agent and the sub-agent didn't do the test and I didn't check its work. A lot of times just like being very curious about why the model made the decision that it did will show you what misled it so that you can fix the harness in order to close this gap.
**Cat Wu：** 有时候模型会说，系统提示词里有些内容让人困惑，或者它没意识到前端验证是这个任务的一部分，又或者它把验证工作委托给了一个子代理（sub-agent），但子代理没做测试而它也没检查子代理的工作。很多时候，只要对模型为什么做出某个决策保持好奇心，就能发现是什么误导了它，然后你就可以修改工具链来弥补这个缺口。
**Cat Wu:** The other thing that helps is to figure out who are the users who you trust the most to give you accurate feedback about the model. Usually there's like a handful of people who are much better than others at articulating what makes a specific model or model harness combination good. And there's a lot of people who will give you feedback, but not everyone's feedback is as qualified. And so finding a group of those like five people you trust is really important for getting very fast feedback.
**Cat Wu：** 另一个有帮助的是找到你最信任的、能给你关于模型的准确反馈的用户。通常会有少数几个人比其他人更擅长清晰表达某个模型或模型加工具链组合好在哪里。很多人会给你反馈，但不是每个人的反馈都同样有价值。所以找到那五个你信任的人，对于快速获取反馈非常重要。
**Cat Wu:** I think the third thing that is useful but not everyone loves doing is building evals. You don't need to build hundreds of evals for them to be useful. Just building 10 great evals is important for helping the team quantify what the goal is and what their progress towards it is and what they're missing. And so I think eval is this like underappreciated thing that more PMs, more engineers should be working on.
**Lenny：** 第三个有用但不是每个人都喜欢做的事情是构建评估（evals）。你不需要构建几百个评估才能让它们有用。只要构建十个优秀的评估，就能帮助团队量化目标是什么、进展如何、缺了什么。我觉得评估是一个被低估的工作，更多的 PM、更多的工程师应该去做。
**Lenny:** We've covered evals a bunch. There's this trend of just like that is the future of product management is writing evals because it -- and essentially it's what does success look like? Okay, cool. Let me actually concretely define it and then we'll know. How much of your time are you spending writing evals would you say?
**Cat Wu：** 我们已经讨论过很多关于评估的话题。有这样一个趋势：产品管理的未来就是编写评估，因为它本质上就是定义"成功是什么样子的"。好，那让我具体定义它，然后我们就能衡量了。你大概花多少时间在写评估上？
**Cat Wu:** I think the importance of evals varies a bit based on the feature that you're working on and or like what the problem you're trying to solve is. So there are a lot of folks on our team who do spend a lot of time working on eval. We have a small pod of folks who collaborate very closely with research to more precisely understand our Claude Code behaviors and what the largest areas of improvement are and trying to measure those pretty concretely.
**Cat Wu：** 评估的重要性会根据你在做的功能或你试图解决的问题有所不同。我们团队有很多人确实花大量时间做评估。我们有一个小团队与研究部门密切合作，更精确地理解 Claude Code 的行为，找出最大的改进空间，并尝试具体地衡量它们。
**Cat Wu:** I personally jump into evals when there's a feature that I think needs a bit more product definition and often the output of this is okay here are like five evals that I made, this is how you run them, these are the ones that succeed and these are the ones that don't, and this is like the prompt that I've used to increase the success rate. It varies a lot though based on the exact feature. Not every feature needs it but I think features such as memory benefit a lot from this.
**Lenny：** 我个人会在觉得某个功能需要更多产品定义时深入做评估，产出通常是这样的：这里有五个我做的评估，这是怎么运行的，这些通过了、这些没通过，这是我用来提高成功率的提示词。不同功能的情况差异很大。不是每个功能都需要评估，但像记忆（memory）这样的功能就非常受益于此。
**Lenny:** This point you made about people being very good at evaluating models, so interesting. It's almost like a human eval of just like okay they understand where it's spiking or it's maybe lacking. Is there anyone specific that you want to shout out that's very good at this?
**Cat Wu：** 你提到有些人非常擅长评估模型，这一点很有意思。这几乎就像一个"人工评估"——他们能理解模型在哪里表现出色、在哪里可能有不足。有没有具体想要特别提到的人在这方面做得特别好？
**Cat Wu:** Two people who I think are incredible at this are -- one, Amanda who defines and molds Claude's character. It's just such a hard role because the task is so ambiguous. Even coding is easier because you can verify the success whereas crafting the character requires a very strong sense of conviction in what who Claude should be. And I think she has like an incredible ability to not only mold the character, but also to like articulate what the goals are, what's successful and what's not.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得有两个人在这方面非常出色。一个是 Amanda，她定义和塑造 Claude 的性格（character）。这是一个非常困难的角色，因为任务本身就极其模糊。即使是编程也更容易一些，因为你可以验证成功与否；而塑造性格需要对"Claude 应该是谁"有非常强的信念感。她不仅有出色的能力去塑造性格，还能清晰地阐述目标是什么、什么是成功的、什么是不成功的。
**Cat Wu:** The other group of people who I really trust is just like the Claude Code team. So we often have team lunches and whenever there's a new model we're testing, one of the fastest ways for us to get feedback is to just like at these team lunches just go to every single person and just be like, "Hey, what is your vibe on the model?" And oftentimes we'll get feedback like, "Okay, this model is like not fully explaining its thinking. It's like too abrupt." Or like hey this model's like just loves writing a ton of memories but like we're not sure if the memories are high quality or not. Or like some people will notice that okay this model loves to test itself which is great or like this model isn't testing itself enough.
**Cat Wu：** 另一组我非常信任的人就是 Claude Code 团队。我们经常一起吃午餐，每当有新模型要测试时，最快获取反馈的方式之一就是在午餐时走到每个人面前问："嘿，你对这个模型的感觉怎么样？"经常会得到这样的反馈："这个模型没有充分解释它的思考过程，太突兀了。"或者"这个模型特别喜欢写大量的记忆条目，但我们不确定这些记忆的质量怎么样。"也有人会注意到"这个模型喜欢自我测试，这很棒"，或者"这个模型测试做得不够"。
**Cat Wu:** So that informs what data we look at to verify okay is this a larger pattern. We have a ton of data but it is very hard to extract insights and so the feedback from this group helps us inform okay what are the hypotheses we want to test and then we're able to extract data to test that.
**Lenny：** 这些反馈帮助我们决定要看什么数据来验证是否是更普遍的模式。我们有海量数据，但从中提取洞察非常困难，所以这个小组的反馈帮助我们确定要验证哪些假设，然后我们再去提取数据进行验证。
**Lenny:** This point you made about the character of Claude -- I had Ben Mann on the podcast, co-founder, and he talked about this. Just like the character, the constitution of Claude is such an important part of Claude. And I didn't realize until afterwards just like -- people like with OpenAI actually one of the examples, one of the reasons people are sad is like the personality of your Claude is like -- because Claude's personality is so good and fun and interesting unlike other models.
**Lenny：** 你提到的 Claude 的性格这个点——我之前请过联合创始人 Ben Mann 上播客，他也谈到了这个。Claude 的性格、Claude 的宪章（constitution）是 Claude 非常重要的一部分。我直到后来才意识到——比如 OpenAI 就是一个例子，人们感到遗憾的原因之一就是 Claude 的个性非常出色、有趣、引人入胜，不像其他模型。
**Lenny:** And the way he put it is the personality is what makes Claude so good at so many things. It feels like this like trivial side thing. Okay, it's going to be funny and interesting and talk in a fun way but it's like so core to the success of Claude. Is there anything you can share about just like what people may not understand about why the character as you described and the personality is so key?
**Cat Wu：** 他的表述是，Claude 的个性正是它在许多事情上表现出色的原因。表面上看这像是个无关紧要的附带品——好吧，它很有趣，说话方式也好玩——但它其实是 Claude 成功的核心。关于你所说的性格和个性为什么如此关键，有什么你能分享的吗？
**Cat Wu:** When you reflect on everyone you've worked with, there's just some people where you're like, I really like their energy. Like, I really like their vibe. And when people think about Claude and Claude Code, this is one of the things that people bring up the most where they just really love that Claude is like -- it's lighthearted and fun. But it also is extremely competent at your task.
**Cat Wu：** 当你回想与你共事过的每个人，总有些人你会觉得：我真的很喜欢他们的气场，我真的很喜欢他们的氛围。当人们谈论 Claude 和 Claude Code 时，这是他们最常提到的一件事——他们真的喜欢 Claude 既轻松有趣，又在你的任务上极其能干。
**Cat Wu:** People really like that Claude's low ego. And so if you tell it, hey, you did this thing wrong, it's like truly sorry. It's like, oh shoot, like, thanks for telling me. Like, let me fix it. Let's work together. It's also very positive. So if you're feeling like, oh, this is like an insurmountable task, I don't know how to get started, Claude is like, okay, it's okay. These are like the steps that I think we should take. Like, do you want me to get started on it for you?
**Cat Wu：** 人们真的很喜欢 Claude 不自负。如果你告诉它"嘿，你这里做错了"，它会真诚地道歉："哎呀，谢谢你告诉我，让我来修复。我们一起搞定。"它也非常积极。如果你觉得"天哪，这个任务太难了，我都不知道从哪儿开始"，Claude 会说："没关系，这些是我觉得我们应该采取的步骤。要不要我帮你先开始？"
**Cat Wu:** I think part of what makes a great co-worker is this positivity, this like bias towards action, this ability to give you like earnest feedback, not just agreeing with every single thing that you say. And so we try to imbue this into Claude because we think it makes it a lot more enjoyable to work with.
**Lenny：** 我认为一个优秀同事的部分特质就是这种积极性、这种行动偏好、这种给你真诚反馈而不是一味同意你说的每句话的能力。所以我们试图把这些注入到 Claude 中，因为我们觉得这让与它合作更加愉快。
**Lenny:** There's something I want to come back to. You talked about how when new models come out, you often have to kind of revisit things you've built. That's so interesting and so like frustrating maybe, just like oh god damn it we shipped this thing now we have to rethink it. Talk about just like how often you have to come back with a new model and we're like okay we have to redo this product that we launched a few months ago.
**Cat Wu：** 有个话题我想回过头来聊。你提到每当新模型发布时，你们经常需要重新审视已经构建的东西。这很有意思，也可能挺令人沮丧的——"该死，我们刚发布了这个功能，现在又得重新思考"。说说你们多久需要因为新模型而回过头去重做几个月前发布的产品？
**Cat Wu:** A lot of the changes that we make with a new model is removing features that are no longer needed. So a lot of times we add features to the product as a crutch for the model because it's not naturally doing it itself. So the classic example for this is a to-do list. When we first launched Claude Code, people would ask it to do these large refactors and Claude Code would say, "Okay, cool. I need to change these like 20 call sites" and it would go and change five of them and then stop.
**Cat Wu：** 我们在新模型发布时做的很多改动其实是移除不再需要的功能。很多时候我们给产品加功能是作为模型的拐杖，因为模型没有自然而然地做到。经典的例子就是待办事项列表（to-do list）。刚发布 Claude Code 时，人们会让它做大规模的代码重构，Claude Code 会说"好的，我需要修改这 20 个调用点"，然后改了 5 个就停了。
**Cat Wu:** And then we were like, "Okay, how do we like force it to remember to get every single one of these 20?" And so Sid on our team was like, "Okay, what if we just like think about what a human would do?" So a human would like make a list of everything that they need to change. Similar to how in VS Code you would look up all the call sites and it would be a list on the left side and you would like go through them one by one and replace all. How do we give this kind of like a tool to Claude?
**Cat Wu：** 然后我们想："怎么才能让它记住要处理完全部 20 个？"于是我们团队的 Sid 说："想想人类会怎么做。人类会列一个清单，列出所有需要更改的地方。就像在 VS Code 里查找所有调用点，左侧会有一个列表，你逐个检查并替换。我们怎么给 Claude 一个类似的工具？"
**Cat Wu:** And so he added a to-do list and we found that with that Claude was actually able to fix all these 20 call sites. But then with Opus 4 and later models we realized that we didn't need to force it to use this to-do list. It would like naturally use it itself. For the earlier models, we had to keep reminding it, hey, did you finish everything on the to-do list? You can't finish until you're done with everything on the to-do list. And for the later models, without prompting, it just like naturally thinks to do everything on the to-do list.
**Cat Wu：** 于是他添加了一个待办事项列表，我们发现有了这个工具，Claude 确实能修复所有 20 个调用点了。但到了 Opus 4 和后续模型，我们发现不需要强制它使用待办事项列表了——它会自然而然地自己使用。对于早期模型，我们必须不断提醒它："嘿，你完成待办事项列表上的所有项目了吗？你不能在全部完成之前结束。"而后来的模型，不需要提示，它自然就会做完待办事项列表上的所有事项。
**Cat Wu:** These days, the to-do list is still nice to have as like a user because then you can more clearly see what Claude is working on. But honestly, it's such a deemphasized part of the product right now that the model may use it, the model may not use it. It's like really not necessary for it to make thorough changes anymore.
**Lenny：** 现在，待办事项列表作为用户界面来说仍然不错，因为你可以更清楚地看到 Claude 正在做什么。但说实话，它已经是产品中一个被大幅弱化的部分了，模型可能会用它，也可能不用。它对于彻底完成修改来说已经不再是必需的了。
**Lenny:** I forget who said this on the podcast -- that the model will eat your harness for breakfast. And what I'm hearing here is essentially you remove things over time that you've had to add on top of the model where it was not operating the way you wanted. And essentially as the models get smarter, you just -- it becomes simpler and simpler for it just to do the thing you want it to do.
**Cat Wu：** 我忘了是谁在播客里说的——"模型会把你的工具链当早餐吃掉"。我从你这里听到的本质上就是，你们随着时间推移会移除那些曾经加在模型之上的东西——那些模型没有按你们期望运作时添加的辅助措施。随着模型变得更聪明，事情变得越来越简单，它直接就能做到你想要的。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. We can remove a lot of prompting interventions every time the model gets smarter. And we actually do this every time we launch a model. We read through the entire system prompt and we reflect on, okay, for each of these sections, does the model really need this reminder anymore? And if not, we'll remove it.
**Cat Wu：** 是的。每次模型变得更聪明时，我们都能移除大量的提示词干预。我们实际上每次发布模型都会这么做——通读整个系统提示词，然后反思：对于每个部分，模型真的还需要这个提醒吗？如果不需要，我们就删掉。
**Cat Wu:** The most exciting thing that new models unlock though is just like entirely new features. So there's a lot of features that we've been testing out with prior models and the accuracy wasn't high enough for us to want to launch them. And so one example of this is code review. We tried to build a code review product a few times and we've launched like simpler versions of code review which is the slash-review command in the past. And it was only with the most recent models that we felt like okay this code review is so good that our engineering team relies on this code review to pass before we merge PRs.
**Cat Wu：** 不过，新模型解锁的最令人兴奋的事情还是全新的功能。有很多功能我们已经用之前的模型测试过，但准确率不够高，不足以让我们想要发布。代码审查（code review）就是一个例子。我们尝试构建代码审查产品好几次了，也发布过较简单版本的代码审查，就是之前的 slash-review 命令。直到最近的模型，我们才觉得这个代码审查足够好，好到我们的工程团队在合并 PR 之前会依赖这个代码审查通过。
**Cat Wu:** And we found that we've always dreamed of Claude being able to be a reliable code reviewer that can actually -- that we can like confidently feel catches the majority of bugs. And it was only with like Opus 4.5 and 4.6 and Sonnet 4.6 that we felt like okay we are now able to like run multiple code review agents simultaneously to traverse the entirety of the codebase and to synthesize a set of like real issues that an engineer needs to address before merge. And so this is like a new capability that the newest models have unlocked.
**Lenny：** 我们一直梦想 Claude 能成为可靠的代码审查者，能让我们有信心它捕获了大部分 bug。直到 Opus 4.5、4.6 和 Sonnet 4.6，我们才觉得可以同时运行多个代码审查代理，遍历整个代码库，综合出一组工程师在合并前需要解决的真实问题。这就是最新模型解锁的新能力。
**Lenny:** This is another trend that is very common on this podcast of build something that will possibly be possible in the next six months. Be kind of at the edge of what's working sort of and then it'll catch up and then it'll be an amazing product and you'll be ahead of everyone.
**Cat Wu：** 这是本播客另一个非常常见的趋势——去构建未来六个月可能实现的东西。站在当前可行性的边缘，然后模型能力会跟上来，于是你就会有一个很棒的产品，并且领先所有人。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, exactly. It's pretty important to build products that don't necessarily work yet so that you know okay what is missing for this product to work. And then with the newest model you can just swap it in to the prototype you've already made and see okay does this new model close that gap.
**Lenny：** 没错。构建目前还不一定能用的产品其实很重要，因为这样你就知道这个产品要成功还缺什么。然后当最新模型出来时，你直接把它接入已有的原型，看看这个新模型是否弥补了那个差距。
**Lenny:** How much are you able to speak to just kind of where things are going with Claude and Co-work as kind of the vision of it? I imagine you don't want to give away too much about the goal but it feels like there's all these awesome features being added on top -- dispatch, control from phone and all these mobile app, all these things. What's kind of just like a way to understand the vision for all these things long term?
**Cat Wu：** 关于 Claude 和 Co-work 的发展方向，你能透露多少？我猜你不想透露太多关于目标的信息，但不断有各种很棒的功能被加进来——dispatch、手机控制、移动端 App 等等。有什么方式可以理解所有这些东西的长期愿景吗？
**Cat Wu:** We think about this in terms of building blocks. So for both Claude Code and Co-work the core building block is making individual tasks successful. So you want to produce some output, you give it a clear prompt description, is it able to consistently produce acceptable output that you're able to either merge or share with your colleagues or external audience. So the task is the core building block. As the models get smarter, the task success rate gets a lot higher.
**Cat Wu：** 我们用"构建模块"的方式来思考这个问题。对于 Claude Code 和 Co-work，核心构建模块是让单个任务成功。你想产出某个结果，给它一个清晰的提示描述，它能否稳定地产出可接受的输出——你可以合并的、或者可以与同事或外部受众分享的。所以任务是核心构建模块。随着模型变聪明，任务的成功率会大幅提高。
**Cat Wu:** And then we see people moving towards doing multiple tasks at the same time. So multi-coding was this big thing towards the end of 2025 and it's only increased since then. And so we see this as okay great, one task works and now you can do like six tasks at a time. As the models get even smarter the way that we are extrapolating this is okay next maybe you're going to run like 50 Claudes at a time or hundreds of Claudes at a time. And so what is the infrastructure we need to build to enable that?
**Cat Wu：** 然后我们看到人们转向同时执行多个任务。多任务编程（multi-coding）在 2025 年底是个大趋势，之后一直在增长。所以我们的理解是：一个任务能成功了，现在你可以同时做六个任务。当模型更聪明时，我们的推断是接下来你可能会同时运行 50 个 Claude，甚至上百个 Claude。那么我们需要构建什么样的基础设施来支持？
**Cat Wu:** At that point you're probably not going to run everything locally on your machine anymore. There's just like not enough RAM to do it. And so we're thinking about how do we make it easier for you to manage all these? These will probably run remotely. How do we build the interface so that you as a human know which tasks you need to look into? How do we make sure that the agent is fully verifying work so that when you look at a task and it says it's done, you like can very quickly verify and fully trust that it is done to your spec.
**Cat Wu：** 到那个阶段，你可能不会再在本地机器上运行所有任务了——RAM 根本不够。所以我们在思考如何让你更轻松地管理所有这些任务。它们可能会在远程运行。如何构建界面让你作为人类知道哪些任务需要关注？如何确保代理在充分验证工作，这样当你查看一个任务并看到它显示已完成时，你可以非常快速地验证并完全信任它确实按你的要求完成了。
**Cat Wu:** And how do we make sure that this like process is self-improving so that when you do see a task that isn't done to your liking, you can give it feedback and the model will know for every future run to incorporate that feedback so it never makes that mistake again. So this is the progression that we're bringing our users along for.
**Lenny：** 以及如何确保这个流程是自我改进的——当你确实看到某个任务没有达到你的期望时，你可以给它反馈，模型在之后每次运行中都会纳入这个反馈，再也不犯同样的错误。这就是我们带用户一起走的发展路径。
**Lenny:** There's a lot of people listening, a lot of product managers, a lot of maybe founders, a lot of other cross-functional folks listening. There's a lot of worry about just how their role -- just the future of their careers. What advice would you have for just people to not just survive this transition to this very AI-driven world, but to be really successful, to essentially just to thrive in this future? What are just like things people need to hear, need to be doing?
**Cat Wu：** 很多听众——产品经理、创始人、其他跨职能的同事——都很担心自己角色的未来和职业前景。在这个高度 AI 驱动的世界里，你有什么建议能帮助人们不仅仅是"活下来"，而是真正成功、真正蓬勃发展？大家需要听到什么、需要做什么？
**Cat Wu:** I think AI gives everybody a ton more leverage than they used to. And so I would push you towards anytime you realize that you're doing some manual task multiple times, think about how you can use Claude Code, Co-work or other AI tools to automate that for you. Most people have like creative parts of their job that they absolutely love and then like tedious parts of their job that they really hate doing. I think the beauty of AI is that it can do those tedious parts for you.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得 AI 给了每个人比以前大得多的杠杆。所以我建议你每次意识到自己在重复做某个手动任务时，想想怎么用 Claude Code、Co-work 或其他 AI 工具来自动化它。大多数人的工作中有他们绝对热爱的创造性部分，也有他们非常讨厌做的乏味部分。AI 的美妙之处在于它可以替你做那些乏味的部分。
**Cat Wu:** It can learn from every time that you've done that manual task and generalize and then run it automatically so that you can focus on the creative parts. And that means you can do a lot more than you used to be able to do. So I think my like immediate push for people is figure out the repetitive parts that you can pass to Claude. Iterate on those automations until the success rate is very high and then focus on okay what more can you be doing for your team, for your product, for your company that like people haven't had the bandwidth to pick up so far. Or like what is that like pet project that you always thought the company should do that like you've never had bandwidth to do.
**Cat Wu：** 它可以从你每次手动执行任务中学习并归纳总结，然后自动运行，让你专注于创造性的部分。这意味着你能比以前做更多的事情。所以我的直接建议是：找出那些你可以交给 Claude 的重复性工作。迭代优化那些自动化流程直到成功率非常高，然后思考你还能为团队、产品、公司做什么——那些大家一直没有精力去做的事情，或者你一直觉得公司应该做但从来没有时间去做的小项目。
**Cat Wu:** If AI can take care of the like grunt work, then you have this extra 20% time now that you might not have before. So my push is to lean into these tools, hand off the work that you're not excited to do, figure out how it can accelerate you, and then as a result, you'll be able to do so much more.
**Lenny：** 如果 AI 能处理那些苦力活，你就有了额外的 20% 的时间，这是你以前可能没有的。所以我的建议是拥抱这些工具，把你不想做的工作交出去，弄清楚它如何加速你，这样一来你就能做更多的事情。
**Lenny:** Something core to what you just shared, which I fully agree with, is find problems to solve with AI. There's all this potential, what all these tools can do. Some of the hardest -- like for a lot of people hardest part is just like what should I actually do. And what you're saying here is just pay attention to things that you are doing constantly you can automate, pay attention to just like ideas that have been floating around that you haven't had time to do. It's basically like solve a problem for yourself is kind of the core advice there.
**Cat Wu：** 你刚分享的内容有一个核心点，我完全同意：用 AI 去解决问题。所有这些工具有巨大的潜力，但对很多人来说最难的部分是"我到底该做什么"。你这里说的就是：关注你反复在做的可以自动化的事情，关注那些一直在脑子里浮现但没时间去做的想法。核心建议本质上就是：为自己解决一个问题。
**Cat Wu:** Exactly. I would also push listeners towards focusing on bringing your automations from okay this is a cool concept to like hey this actually works 100% of the time. Like sometimes I see users trying to automate something, getting it to like 90, 95% accuracy and then giving up on it. And if an automation doesn't work 100% of the time, it's not really an automation.
**Cat Wu：** 没错。我还想建议听众把注意力放在让你的自动化从"这是个很酷的概念"变成"它真的能 100% 正常工作"上。有时我看到用户尝试自动化某些东西，做到 90%、95% 的准确率就放弃了。如果一个自动化不能 100% 工作，它就不算真正的自动化。
**Cat Wu:** And that last 5 to 10% does take more time. Also, building the automation is often a lot slower than you doing it yourself. I would encourage listeners to put in that time to scope some automation that you really want to get to 100%. Put in the elbow grease to teach Claude your preferences, to like give it feedback so that it can improve its skill so that it can get to that 100%. And then like really then you'll be able to rely on it. There's just not much value in a 95% automation.
**Lenny：** 最后那 5% 到 10% 确实需要更多时间。而且构建自动化往往比你自己做要慢得多。我鼓励听众花时间去确定一个你真的想做到 100% 的自动化。投入精力去教 Claude 你的偏好，给它反馈让它提升能力，让它达到 100%。到那时你才能真正依赖它。95% 的自动化其实价值不大。
**Lenny:** I am super guilty of that. This is really good advice for me.
**Cat Wu：** 我完全有这个毛病。这对我来说是非常好的建议。
**Cat Wu:** I am guilty of this too. I've been teaching Co-work to try to get me to inbox zero for Gmail and it has not been -- it has been very time consuming and it is definitely not there as you probably realized.
**Lenny：** 我也有这个毛病。我一直在教 Co-work 帮我把 Gmail 收件箱清零（inbox zero），这个过程非常耗时，而且远没有达到理想状态——你大概也能想到。
**Lenny:** Yeah, I funny enough that's exactly where my mind goes. I have this workflow I set up where every email I get, it looks for things that are spammy, which is just like all these like, "Hey, can I come on your podcast or what about this one?" Like all these things I'm just like, I don't have time for these sorts of things. And I have it categorized into a folder called spammy. And it's just like it's 95% great, but then there's like, oh wow, I missed an email because it went in there. So this is a good push for me to like I'm going to work on this. I'm going to get it to perfect.
**Cat Wu：** 哈哈，有意思的是这正是我想到的场景。我有一个工作流，每封收到的邮件它都会判断是不是垃圾性质的——比如"嘿，我能上你的播客吗"或者"看看这个怎么样"之类的。我没时间处理这种事。然后它把这些归类到一个叫"疑似垃圾"的文件夹。95% 的时候很好用，但偶尔会发现"天，有封邮件被误归类了"。所以你的建议很好地推了我一把——我要继续优化这个，让它做到完美。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. We also are working on making the flow for customizing these commands a lot easier because right now I think you have to like know too many concepts. You have to know to define a skill. You have to know to like use this skill and give it feedback. And then you have to know to tell Co-work to update the skill based on all the feedback that you gave. And then you also have to know where to read the skill to like make sure that the feedback was incorporated the way that you want. It's also our job to make this flow really seamless so that it doesn't feel painful to do.
**Lenny：** 是的。我们也在努力让定制这些命令的流程变得更简单，因为目前我觉得你需要了解太多概念。你得知道怎么定义一个技能（skill），怎么使用这个技能并给它反馈，然后还得告诉 Co-work 根据你给的所有反馈来更新技能，还得知道去哪里查看技能以确保反馈被按你期望的方式采纳了。让这个流程变得真正流畅也是我们的责任，不能让用户觉得痛苦。
**Lenny:** Amazing. Is there anything else, Cat, you wanted to share? Anything else you wanted to leave listeners with? Anything you wanted to double down on that we haven't already touched on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
**Cat Wu：** 太棒了。Cat，还有什么你想分享的吗？还有什么想留给听众的？在我们进入非常精彩的闪电问答（Lightning Round）之前，有什么想补充的吗？
**Cat Wu:** I see a lot of people playing around with AI and building like prototype apps and tinkering with building workflows. I would really push people towards building apps that you're actually using every single day because I think only through that usage are you actually getting the value. Like if you build a prototype app that isn't helping you get more done, then the AI isn't really adding value to your day.
**Lenny：** 我看到很多人在尝试 AI——构建原型应用、摆弄各种工作流。我真的建议大家去构建你每天都会实际使用的应用，因为只有通过真正的使用你才能获得价值。如果你构建了一个原型应用但它并没有帮你完成更多事情，那 AI 其实没有给你的日常增加什么价值。
**Lenny:** And there's only so much you learn from that when it's like, okay, I just one-shotted something. Oh, that's cool. And then you never come back to it. Like you're not learning a lot.
**Cat Wu：** 而且你从中学到的东西也有限。就像"好，我一次就生成了这个东西，挺酷的"，然后你再也不碰它了。你其实学不到什么。
**Cat Wu:** And you're not getting like much leverage from it.
**Lenny：** 而且你也没有从中获得多少杠杆效应。
**Lenny:** And actual leverage. Yeah, that's such a good point.
**Cat Wu：** 确实没有。是的，这个观点非常好。
**Cat Wu:** I also think there's a lot of people who spend a lot of time like customizing their workflow. So there's like -- I think there's like two ends of the spectrum. One is like people who never customize or never build automations, but there's like this polar opposite end of people who like obsess around customizing their tool, like adding a ton of skills and MCPs and these like workflow improvements.
**Cat Wu：** 我还觉得有很多人花大量时间定制自己的工作流。这像是一个光谱的两端：一端是从不定制、从不构建自动化的人；另一端是那些沉迷于定制工具的人——添加大量技能和 MCP（模型上下文协议）以及各种工作流改进。
**Cat Wu:** And I think sometimes that can even distract from your core goal of like launching some product or building some feature. I think there's a lot of fun in customizing and we definitely want to make our products very hackable so that you can make it work really well for you, but there is a limit to how much it's useful. And I think there's a camp of people who maybe spend so much time customizing that they're like not sleeping and not doing the like core task that they originally set out to do.
**Lenny：** 有时候这甚至会分散你对核心目标的注意力——比如发布某个产品或构建某个功能。定制确实很有趣，我们当然希望让产品具有高度可编程性以便你能让它真正适合你，但有用的程度是有限的。我觉得有一部分人花了太多时间在定制上，以至于不睡觉，也没有在做他们最初要做的核心任务。
**Lenny:** I see a lot of that on Twitter just like look at my setup. It's out of control. It's so optimized. Then what are you -- what are you actually building? No, but my setup is so awesome. Like it gets so much done.
**Cat Wu：** 我在 Twitter 上看到很多这样的："看看我的配置，太疯狂了，优化到了极致。"那你到底在用它构建什么呢？"不是，但我的配置超牛的，它能完成好多事。"
**Cat Wu:** I think the simple setups actually work better.
**Lenny：** 我觉得简单的配置其实效果更好。
**Lenny:** Slight power-up, getting take it, level up a little bit.
**Cat Wu：** 适度增强一点就好。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. Yeah.
**Lenny：** 是的。
**Lenny:** There's this Karpathy tweet that just came out yesterday where he talked about this divide that's interesting between people that tried ChatGPT, Claude back in the day. It was like okay and they're like nah this is terrible and they kind of gave up on like what AI could do for them and they're just like so cynical of like no way it's not actually that big of a deal. And then there's people that are using it to code essentially who see the full intense power of it and how good it is and people on both sides don't understand the other side and why they -- how much they -- how they see the world. And so your advice is really good here just like actually use it for real things and see how good it actually has gotten.
**Cat Wu：** Karpathy 昨天刚发了一条推文，谈到一个有趣的分化现象：有些人早期试过 ChatGPT、Claude，觉得一般般就放弃了，对 AI 能为他们做什么非常冷嘲热讽——"不，这没什么大不了的"。而另一些人在用它写代码，真切感受到了它的全部威力和出色表现。双方都不理解对方为什么那样看世界。所以你的建议真的很好——真正用它做实际的事情，去看看它现在已经多么强大。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. I think the big shift is that the 2024 generation of products were chat-based and the Claude Code generation of products is action-based. And the like big aha moment people have is when Claude can just like do things on your behalf. It is an amazing feeling to know that the agent is capable of doing so much more than telling you what to do. Like the agent can actually just do it itself. And when people feel that, I think that's the eye-opening moment.
**Lenny：** 是的。我觉得最大的转变是：2024 年那一代产品是基于对话的，而 Claude Code 这一代产品是基于行动的。人们的顿悟时刻是 Claude 真的能代替你做事。知道代理不只是告诉你该做什么，而是它自己就能做到——这种感觉太棒了。当人们体验到这一点，我觉得那就是醍醐灌顶的时刻。
**Lenny:** Shout out the Chrome extension, the Claude Code Chrome extension, which you can just watch it doing stuff and you'd be like, "Fill out this form for me" and like, "All right, here I go."
**Cat Wu：** 推荐一下 Chrome 扩展，Claude Code Chrome 扩展。你可以看着它操作，比如说"帮我填这个表单"，然后它就"好的，来了"。
**Cat Wu:** Exactly.
**Lenny：** 没错。
**Lenny:** Okay. Anything else before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
**Cat Wu：** 好，在我们进入非常精彩的闪电问答之前还有什么要说的吗？
**Cat Wu:** No, let's do it.
**Lenny：** 没了，开始吧。
**Lenny:** Let's do it. Cat, I've got five questions for you. Welcome to the lightning round. There's this animation that plays. I have to make sure to say it. Are you ready?
**Cat Wu：** 来吧。Cat，我有五个问题要问你。欢迎来到闪电问答环节。这里会播放一段动画，我得记得说出来。你准备好了吗？
**Cat Wu:** I'm ready.
**Lenny：** 准备好了。
**Lenny:** First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
**Cat Wu：** 第一个问题，你最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？
**Cat Wu:** I really like How Asia Works. It's a story about economic development and what are like the policies and governments that make long lasting successful economies. The other book that I'm really into is The Technology Trap. So, this is actually about the past few technology revolutions -- the industrial revolution and the computer revolution -- and how this has affected workers. The reason that I really like this is because I think there's a lot we can learn from history to make sure that this transition goes well. And maybe on like a fun note, I really like Paper Menagerie. It's just like a book of short stories about like coming of age and AI and just like self-discovery.
**Lenny：** 我非常喜欢《亚洲如何运作》（How Asia Works）。它讲的是经济发展的故事——什么样的政策和政府能够造就持久成功的经济体。另一本我很喜欢的是《技术陷阱》（The Technology Trap）。这本书实际上是关于过去几次技术革命——工业革命和计算机革命——以及它们如何影响了工人。我喜欢这本书是因为我觉得我们可以从历史中学到很多，以确保这次转型顺利进行。说个轻松点的，我很喜欢《纸上动物园》（Paper Menagerie）。它是一本短篇小说集，关于成长、AI 和自我发现。
**Lenny:** Favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?
**Cat Wu：** 你最近非常喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
**Cat Wu:** I really like Drive to Survive. There's no like deeper meaning to it. I just -- there's just something very satisfying about people being so obsessed with like a singular engineering goal and just like the purity of their pursuit. And I also really love Free Solo, which is about Alex Honnold climbing El Capitan without a harness. And I think similarly, it's just such a pure achievement to be able to climb this extremely challenging, dangerous route and to be able to have the mental focus to do it knowing that if you make a single mistake, you die.
**Lenny：** 我很喜欢《极速求生》（Drive to Survive）。没什么深层含义，只是看到人们对单一的工程目标如此痴迷、追求如此纯粹，让人非常过瘾。我也非常喜欢《徒手攀岩》（Free Solo），讲的是 Alex Honnold 不带安全装备攀登酋长岩（El Capitan）。同样，这是一个如此纯粹的成就——能够攀登这条极其困难、极其危险的路线，并且拥有那样的心理专注力去完成，明知一个失误就意味着死亡。
**Lenny:** It's insane. Yeah, that movie is out of control. And it's interesting how these relate in some way to the work you do.
**Cat Wu：** 太疯狂了。那部电影简直不可思议。有趣的是这些在某种程度上与你所做的工作相关。
**Cat Wu:** I actually am a rock climber. I first watched Free Solo before I climbed rocks and so I thought it was impressive. I didn't understand how impressive it was. It's one of the rare movies where like the more you know about it, the more you're blown away by how insane this is. Like the kinds of moves he's doing on the wall are things that like I don't think I will ever be able to do in my lifetime if it were set in a gym like one foot off the ground.
**Lenny：** 我实际上就是一个攀岩者。我第一次看《徒手攀岩》是在我开始攀岩之前，当时觉得很了不起，但并不理解有多了不起。这是那种少有的电影——你了解得越多，就越被它的疯狂程度震撼。他在岩壁上做的那些动作，即使是在健身房里、离地一英尺、有绳子保护的情况下，我觉得我这辈子可能都做不到。
**Lenny:** With a rope.
**Cat Wu：** 有绳子的情况下。
**Cat Wu:** With a rope.
**Lenny：** 有绳子的情况下。
**Lenny:** Did you see the documentary on that other guy, the younger one that went on like ice mountain?
**Cat Wu：** 你看过另一个纪录片吗？那个更年轻的攀冰者？
**Cat Wu:** I did. That one was very sad.
**Lenny：** 看了。那个很让人难过。
**Lenny:** But that was wild. Okay. Favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?
**Cat Wu：** 但确实很震撼。好的。你最近发现的最喜欢的产品是什么？
**Cat Wu:** The product that is like most changed my life outside of Claude products is probably Waymo. Like I'm a diehard Waymo user. Use it twice a day, get to and from work. So the two things that I really like about it are one, I don't feel bad if a Waymo is waiting for me. And so I feel like I feel less pressure to be right at the curbside the moment it arrives.
**Cat Wu：** 除了 Claude 产品之外，最大程度改变了我生活的产品大概是 Waymo。我是 Waymo 的忠实用户，每天用两次通勤。我特别喜欢它的两点：第一，如果 Waymo 在等我，我不会觉得不好意思。不需要在它到的那一刻就站在路边，心理压力小多了。
**Cat Wu:** And the second thing is I feel like it lets me be a bit more productive. When I'm in the car with another human, I typically try not to like do any work calls. I feel a little rude if I'm like on my laptop the whole time. But one thing I really appreciate about the Waymo is I can call into a work call. I'm not worried about someone overhearing me. I'm not worried about, hey, is this like rude? Am I talking too loud? Do I need to ask someone to like change the music? And so this has been like -- I feel like this has given me back like 30 minutes every day.
**Lenny：** 第二，我觉得它让我更高效了。坐车和另一个人在一起时，我通常不太好意思打工作电话。如果全程用笔记本电脑感觉有点不礼貌。但在 Waymo 里我可以接工作电话，不用担心有人听到，不用担心"这样是不是不礼貌"、"我是不是说话太大声了"、"要不要让人换个音乐"。这每天帮我省回了大约 30 分钟。
**Lenny:** All these second order effects of technology. It's so interesting.
**Cat Wu：** 技术带来的所有这些二阶效应真的很有趣。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. I always thought Waymo needed to be priced lower than Uber and Lyft to succeed, but actually I'm like very happy to pay a 2x premium for it.
**Lenny：** 是的。我一直以为 Waymo 必须比 Uber 和 Lyft 便宜才能成功，但实际上我非常乐意为它支付两倍的溢价。
**Lenny:** I love Waymo. It's just like -- like once you see it, you're just like, "Wow, this is insane." And then you get used to it. Like you get in there, you're like, "This is crazy." And then you forget about it.
**Cat Wu：** 我也很喜欢 Waymo。第一次看到的时候你会觉得"哇，这太不可思议了"，然后你就习惯了。你坐进去，觉得"这太疯狂了"，然后就忘记了。
**Cat Wu:** Totally. And I think it's also changed the vernacular. Like a lot of people at Anthropic love Waymo. And I think in the past you would be like, "Hey, like let's call like blah blah ride share app." And now like everyone's just like, "Okay, is the Waymo here?"
**Lenny：** 完全是。而且我觉得它也改变了大家的用语习惯。Anthropic 很多人都喜欢 Waymo。以前你会说"嘿，我们叫个某某打车软件"，现在大家都直接说"Waymo 到了吗？"
**Lenny:** Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?
**Cat Wu：** 好的，还有两个问题。你有没有一个经常在工作或生活中回归的人生座右铭？
**Cat Wu:** Just do things.
**Lenny：** 行动就好（Just do things）。
**Lenny:** That's right.
**Cat Wu：** 说得好。
**Cat Wu:** I think there's a lot of value in like first principles thinking and if you know what you're optimizing for and you have like strong first principles, then you can normally deduce what the right like course of action is and be able to clearly articulate that to all the stakeholders and then you should just like do it. Like I think jobs are fake. If you understand the constraints, you can figure out what you can do and then just like try to do it quickly, learn from the mistakes and apologize or fix them if you did something wrong.
**Lenny：** 我觉得第一性原理（first principles）思考很有价值。如果你知道自己在优化什么，并且有很强的第一性原理，那么你通常能推导出正确的行动方案，能够清晰地向所有利益相关者阐述，然后你就应该直接去做。我觉得职位头衔是虚的。如果你理解约束条件，你就能弄清楚自己能做什么，然后快速尝试，从错误中学习，如果做错了就道歉或修正。
**Lenny:** You could just do things, whoever said that.
**Cat Wu：** "行动就好"，不知道是谁说的。
**Cat Wu:** I think it's liberating actually to like tell people this. I think in a lot of companies like roles are very strictly defined, like okay this is what the PM does, this is what the designer does, this is what engineer does. And then even team scopes are very rigidly defined. So, hey, like this corner of the codebase we touch and this corner like we're not allowed to touch. And I think what "just do things" lets people do is they feel like empowered to make these decisions, empowered to operate across team boundaries just to like get something done.
**Lenny：** 我觉得告诉别人这一点其实很解放。在很多公司里，角色被非常严格地定义——PM 做这个，设计师做那个，工程师做那个。团队范围也非常刻板——这个代码库的这个角落是我们负责的，那个角落不能碰。"行动就好"让人们觉得有权做出这些决策，有权跨团队边界去完成某件事。
**Lenny:** That feels like a big important skill to be good at. People call it agency. Just like do the things.
**Cat Wu：** 这感觉是一个非常重要的能力。人们称之为"能动性"（agency）——就是去做那些事情。
**Cat Wu:** Bias towards action.
**Lenny：** 行动偏好（Bias towards action）。
**Lenny:** All these ways of describing just like -- you don't wait for permission.
**Cat Wu：** 都是不同方式的表达——你不需要等待许可。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. I think this is my favorite reason to work at a startup at some point in your life because like one thing that was like very life-changing for me was actually working at Scale when we were 20 people. And so there was just no process and we had like really big problems that we needed to solve. And I really appreciate Alex and the rest of the team for like empowering me and the rest of the team to just like figure things out without any boundaries for what sales is supposed to do, what ops is supposed to do, what engineer is supposed to do. Just like you have all the tools at your disposal. You have some like ambitious hairy problem statement and you can do whatever you need to like get to a good solution.
**Lenny：** 是的。我觉得这也是为什么每个人在人生某个阶段应该去创业公司工作的原因。对我来说非常有意义的一段经历就是在 Scale 只有 20 人的时候那里工作。当时完全没有流程，但我们有非常大的问题要解决。我非常感谢 Alex 和团队的其他成员赋能给我和大家去自行解决问题，不设边界——不去定义销售应该做什么、运营应该做什么、工程师应该做什么。你拥有所有可用的工具，你有一个雄心勃勃的复杂问题陈述，你可以做任何需要做的事来找到好的解决方案。
**Lenny:** Like you almost need that experience to build that skill to feel comfortable doing that because a lot of people, you know, they go through school or in college and all these like do the thing we tell you to do and then you will get a good grade. And you have to kind of unlearn that of like, okay, I'm just going to do the thing that needs to be done and even if people think it's dumb, I think it's the right thing to do.
**Cat Wu：** 你几乎需要那种经历来培养这种能力，才能在做的时候感到自如。因为很多人从学校、大学一路走来都是"做我们告诉你做的事，你就能拿到好成绩"。你必须卸下这种思维："好吧，我就去做需要做的事，即使别人觉得蠢，我认为这是正确的。"
**Cat Wu:** Yeah. Exactly.
**Lenny：** 完全同意。
**Lenny:** Okay. Okay, I actually have two more quick questions. Two more final questions. One is -- when Claude thinks, there's all these -- I don't know if you call them verbs. What's the term for these things?
**Cat Wu：** 好的。实际上我还有两个快速问题。当 Claude 在思考的时候，会出现各种——我不知道你们叫它们什么，动词？这些东西的术语是什么？
**Cat Wu:** Thinking words.
**Lenny：** 思考词（Thinking words）。
**Lenny:** Thinking words. And interestingly, these all leaked in the source code. Do you have a favorite thinking word?
**Cat Wu：** 思考词。有趣的是这些都在源代码里被泄露了。你有没有最喜欢的思考词？
**Cat Wu:** I really like "manifesting." It's also like the sticker that I have on my -- favorite.
**Lenny：** 我很喜欢"manifesting"（显化中）。这也是我贴在——最喜欢的贴纸。
**Lenny:** Clearly the winner. Okay, final question. Asked Boris this too. With AGI potentially arriving in our lifetime when you don't potentially have to work, what are you going to do? What are you going to do with all your time?
**Cat Wu：** 显然是最佳选择。好的，最后一个问题。我也问过 Boris 这个问题。如果 AGI 在我们有生之年到来，到那时你可能不一定需要工作了，你会做什么？你打算怎么度过所有时间？
**Cat Wu:** I think it will take a long time for AGI to diffuse across society. So, I think the immediate thing is actually just like helping bring the world along. I think my like non-serious answer for after this happens is I'll probably just do a lot of rock climbing. I'll probably just like live in some -- I'll probably move to like Fontainebleau and just like live amongst 10,000 boulders and climb for a bit.
**Cat Wu：** 我觉得 AGI 扩散到全社会需要很长时间。所以眼前最迫切的事其实是帮助世界一起过渡。至于之后的不太正经的回答——我大概会做大量攀岩。我可能会搬到枫丹白露（Fontainebleau），住在一万块抱石中间，攀岩一阵子。
**Cat Wu:** There's also so many books I want to read that my goal is to be able to read one or two books a week and I'm currently at probably like 0.5. The backlog is pretty big. I think there's just like so much we can learn from history and so much that I don't understand as well as I would love to. Like I don't know anything about physics or like robotics or like any hardware or like aerospace or there's just so many interesting topics. So I'm excited to learn even knowing that the AI will already know it.
**Lenny：** 还有太多书想读了，我的目标是每周能读一到两本，而目前大概是 0.5 本。积压的书单很长。我觉得从历史中可以学到太多东西了，有太多我不够了解但很想深入的领域——比如物理、机器人、硬件、航空航天，有太多有趣的主题。所以我很期待去学习，即使知道 AI 已经知道这些了。
**Lenny:** Cat, this was amazing. You're awesome. Two follow-up questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and just follow what you're up to? And how can listeners be useful to you?
**Cat Wu：** Cat，这次对话太精彩了。你太棒了。两个后续问题：听众在哪里可以找到你？如果想联系你或者关注你的动态，怎么找到你？听众怎么样可以帮到你？
**Cat Wu:** The best way to reach out is I am Catwoo on Twitter. Feel free to like tag me in things. Feel free to DM me. I read all my DMs. I don't always respond to every single one, but I will read them all. And then the thing that is most helpful is tell us where Claude Code and Co-work aren't working well for you. We are very grateful for the amount of positive feedback. But the things that we thrive on is edge cases, errors, like specific tasks that we can reproduce where Claude Code or Co-work fail.
**Cat Wu：** 联系我最好的方式是，我在 Twitter 上的用户名是 Catwoo。欢迎在帖子里 tag 我，欢迎私信我。我会读所有的私信，虽然不一定每条都回复，但我都会看。对我们最有帮助的是告诉我们 Claude Code 和 Co-work 在哪些地方没有为你好好工作。我们非常感谢收到的正面反馈，但我们真正依赖的是边缘案例、错误、以及你能复现的具体任务——那些 Claude Code 或 Co-work 失败的情况。
**Cat Wu:** Because if you're able to share that with us and we're able to reproduce it, then this is something that we're able to actively improve for our next generations of models and for our next harnesses.
**Lenny：** 因为如果你能分享给我们并且我们能复现，这就是我们能主动改进下一代模型和工具链的东西。
**Lenny:** Extremely cool. People on Twitter are not shy with sharing this feedback. So keep it coming.
**Cat Wu：** 非常酷。Twitter 上的人们分享这类反馈从来不含蓄。继续发吧。
**Cat Wu:** Share, please, please share the problems that you're having with us.
**Lenny：** 请分享，请一定分享你们遇到的问题。
**Lenny:** Yeah. And it's really cool to see all your team being so active on Twitter and responding to people and so -- like what I'm hearing is this is actually stuff you guys actually see and react to. So--
**Cat Wu：** 是的。看到你们整个团队在 Twitter 上这么活跃、回应大家，真的很酷。我现在理解了，这些确实是你们真正在看和在回应的内容。
**Cat Wu:** Yeah, we appreciate everyone being so engaged with us. It gives the team a ton of energy. We have this channel of like user love and so whenever you guys share a success story we post it there and whenever you guys share like issues with our product we put it into our feedback channel. That way our broader team is able to act on it.
**Lenny：** 是的，我们非常感谢大家与我们的积极互动。这给团队带来了巨大的能量。我们有一个"用户之爱"频道，每当你们分享成功故事时我们就发在那里，每当你们分享产品问题时我们就放进反馈频道。这样我们更大的团队就能据此行动。
**Lenny:** That is so cool to know. Thanks for sharing that. Well Cat, thank you so much for being here.
**Cat Wu：** 知道这些太好了。感谢分享。Cat，非常感谢你来做客。
**Cat Wu:** Thanks for having me.
**Lenny：** 感谢邀请。
**Lenny:** Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.
