**Lenny:** 你以前有大约 10 个全职员工,现在只有 1.2 个人类员工,外加 20 个 AI 智能体(agent)。
**Lenny:** You used to have about 10 people full-time. Now you have 1.2 humans, 20 agents.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我们有 10 张办公桌,以前坐的都是市场推广(go-to-market)人员。现在每张桌上都贴着我们智能体的名字。Reply 代表 Replit,Quali 代表 Qualified,Arty 代表 Artisan。Agent Force 还需要起个昵称。智能体整夜工作,周末也工作,圣诞节也工作。我们不再招销售了,彻底不招了。
**Jason Lemkin:** We have 10 desks that used to be go to market people. They're all just labeled with our agents. Reply for Replet, Quali for Qualified, Arty for Artisan. Agent Force needs a nickname. Agents work all night and they work weekends and they work on Christmas. We're done with hiring humans in sales. We're done.
**Lenny:** 这个业务的表现跟你有 10 个人类员工时差不多。
**Lenny:** The business is doing very similarly to what it was when you had 10 humans.
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果还有两个优秀的人才愿意加入,别误会,我明天就会录用他们。但我不会再雇那种入职三个月了还不知道 SaaStr 是做什么的人。我真的做不到了。AI 正在替代那些人们今天本来就不想做的工作,正在淘汰中等水平和平庸的人。
**Jason Lemkin:** If I had two more great humans that wanted to join, don't get me wrong, I would hire them tomorrow. But I'm not going to hire someone that after their third month in the job doesn't know what SaaStr does. I just can't do that. AI is replacing the jobs people don't want to do today, and it is displacing the midpack and the mediocre.
**Lenny:** 你怎么看销售这个职业的未来?
**Lenny:** How do you see the future of the sales profession?
**Jason Lemkin:** 我们应该出现年薪 25 万美元的 SDR(销售开发代表),但他们会像在 Vercel 那样,管理 10 个智能体,而不是 10 个人。那种从大学毕业就被招来发邮件的初级 SDR,我们不再需要了。负责筛选进来的潜在客户、处理"联系我们"表单的那些人,我们今天就已经不需要了。他们明年就该彻底消失。
**Jason Lemkin:** We should have $250,000 a year SDRs, but they'd be like at Vercel, they'd be managing 10 agents, not 10 people. The classic SDR junior kid that is hired out of college to send emails, we don't need them. Folks that qualify leads coming in, the "contact me" that we see, we have no need for them today. They should be extinct next year.
**Lenny:** 有人听到这里会想:"完了,我的工作要保不住了。"
**Lenny:** Someone's listening to this like, "Oh man, my job is in trouble."
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果你能去做我刚才说的这些事,你会变得极度抢手。
**Jason Lemkin:** If you can go do this, you're hyper employable.
**Lenny:** 今天我的嘉宾是 Jason Lemkin,SaaStr 的创始人兼 CEO。SaaStr 是全球最大的 B2B 创始人社区,Jason 也是我最欣赏的销售和市场推广领域的思想家之一。他不仅对销售的方方面面有极深的理解,表达也非常清晰直接,而且他现在正亲自深入探索 AI 能为销售组织做些什么。他把自己 SaaStr 的销售团队从大约 10 个 SDR 和客户经理(AE),转变成了一个全职 AE、一个兼职的首席 AI 官 Amelia,以及 20 个 AI 智能体。他从 AI 团队看到的业绩表现与之前的人类团队相当,而且这才刚刚开始。
这是我最喜欢的那类对话,因为嘉宾正活在未来,来这里向我们展示未来是什么样的、我们正朝哪个方向走、我们自己怎么到达那里,以及如何避开他一路上踩过的所有坑。我们会覆盖他在 AI 时代关于销售和市场推广走向的所有心得。他会给销售人员提建议,讨论他们职业生涯的未来、市场推广组织的未来、AI 创业公司现在如何取胜、他发现最有用的工具是什么、把一个销售团队转型需要什么,等等。这一期会让你的大脑以最好的方式高速运转起来。
如果你喜欢这个播客,别忘了在你常用的播客应用或 YouTube 上订阅和关注,这对我们帮助巨大。如果你成为我新闻通讯的年度订阅用户,你可以免费获得 19 个高级产品一整年的使用权,包括 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、Naden、Gamma、Linear、Devon、PostTalk、Superhuman、Descript、Whisper Flow、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、Chapard、D Mobin 和 Stripe Atlas。请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 并点击 Product Pass。接下来,在赞助商广告之后,我为大家请出 Jason Lemkin。
**Lenny:** Today, my guest is Jason Lemkin, founder and CEO of SaaStr, the world's largest community for B2B founders and one of my absolute favorite sales and go to market minds on the planet. Jason is not only deeply knowledgeable about everything sales, he's also extremely articulate and direct and is also now personally going super deep on what AI can do for a sales org. He's transformed his own SaaStr sales team from around 10 SDRs and AEs to one full-time AE, a part-time chief of AI named Amelia, and 20 AI agents. He is seeing the same performance from his AI team as he saw with his former human team and he's just getting started.
These are my favorite kinds of conversations because the guest is living in the future and comes here to show us what the future is like, where we're headed and how we can get there ourselves and also just how to avoid all the pitfalls that he had to deal with along the way. We cover all of the things that he has learned about where sales and go to market is going in the AI age. He gives a bunch of advice for salespeople and the future of their careers, the future of the go-to-market org, how to win as an AI startup right now, what tools he's finding most useful, what it took to shift a sales team, and so much more. This episode is going to get your mind spinning in the best way possible.
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously. And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 19 premium products for free for an entire year, including a year free of Lovable, Replit, Bolt, Naden, Gamma, Linear, Devon, PostTalk, Superhuman, Descript, Whisper Flow, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, Chapard, D Mobin, and Stripe Atlas. Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click Product Pass. With that, I bring you Jason Lemkin after a short word from our sponsors.
**Lenny:** 今天这期节目由 DX 赞助,这是一个由顶尖研究人员打造的开发者智能平台(developer intelligence platform)。要在 AI 时代蓬勃发展,组织需要快速适应。但许多组织领导者很难回答一些紧迫的问题,比如:哪些工具在发挥作用?它们是怎么被使用的?到底什么在创造价值?DX 提供领导者所需的数据和洞察来应对这个转变。Dropbox、Booking.com、Adion 和 Intercom 等公司都在用 DX 深入了解 AI 如何为开发者创造价值,以及 AI 对工程效率的实际影响。要了解更多,请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/lenny。
**Lenny:** Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly. But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adion, and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny. That's getdx.com/lenny.
**Lenny:** 这期节目由 Vercel 的 V0 赞助。V0 是一个面向各种技术背景专业人士的网页开发助手。不管你是产品经理、设计师还是开发者,V0 都能改变你把产品变为现实的方式。有了 V0,人人都能上手。别再只带着文档和想法去评审会了,带着能展示真实功能的可运行原型去吧。V0 能起草项目计划、生成交互式界面、构建全栈应用,而且不需要写一行代码。再加上 AI 和数据库集成、截图导入以及与 GitHub 同步等功能,V0 帮助减少开发瓶颈,增强技术团队和非技术团队之间的协作。结果就是更快的迭代和从想法到实现的更短路径。Vercel 为那些想在灵感迸发时就开始创造的人打造了 V0。如果你能想到,你就能发布。请访问 vercel.com/lenny 开始使用。
**Lenny:** This episode is brought to you by V0 from Vercel. V0 is the web development assistant designed for professionals of all technical backgrounds. Whether you're a product manager, designer, or developer, transform how you bring products to life. With V0, everybody can cook. Don't just show up to reviews with docs and ideas. Arrive with working prototypes that demonstrate real functionality. V0 drafts project plans, generates interactive interfaces, and builds full stack applications without writing a single line of code. And with features like AI and database integrations, screenshot import and sync with GitHub, V0 helps reduce development bottlenecks and enhance collaboration between technical and non-technical team members. The result, faster iteration and a shorter path from idea to implementation. Vercel built V0 for the builders who want to create at the moment of inspiration. If you can dream it, you can ship it. Visit vercel.com/lenny to get started. That's vercel.com/lenny.
**Lenny:** Jason,非常感谢你来参加节目,欢迎回到播客。
**Lenny:** Jason, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.
**Jason Lemkin:** 能先当超级粉丝、然后又能来做嘉宾,真的很幸运,对吧?坐在这一边的感觉太棒了。
**Jason Lemkin:** Lucky to be a super fan and then to get to join, right? It's terrific to be on the other side.
**Lenny:** 这是我们的第二次对话。上次对话是一年半以前。我不知道你有没有注意到,那一期已经成了一期传奇节目,人们一直在分享。那次对话基本上是深入探讨如何建立你的销售组织……
**Lenny:** So, this is our second conversation. We did our last conversation a year and a half ago. I don't know if you know this, but it became a pretty legendary episode. It's something people continue to share. And that conversation is around basically a deep dive into building your sales org...
**Jason Lemkin:** 从那以后很多东西都变了。
**Jason Lemkin:** And a lot has changed.
**Lenny:** 是的。
**Lenny:** Yes.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对你和对整个世界都是。咳,AI。
**Jason Lemkin:** For you and the world since then. Cough, AI.
**Lenny:** 后来发生的事情是,你极其深入地研究了 AI 能为销售、创业公司和市场推广带来什么。我喜欢这类对话的原因是,你基本上就活在未来,然后来到这里给我们看一眼事情的走向,告诉我们怎么避开弯路,帮我们自己也到达那里。
**Lenny:** And what's happened is you've gone extremely deep on what AI enables for sales, for startups, for go to market. And what I love about conversations like this is you're basically living in the future and you're here to give us a glimpse of where things are heading and tell us how to avoid the wrong turns and just help us get there ourselves.
**Jason Lemkin:** 这件事我觉得我能做到。
**Jason Lemkin:** That I think I can do.
**Lenny:** 作为开场,请帮我们了解一下你经营的这个业务——SaaStr。你们卖的是什么?这是个什么样的生意?你具体做什么,Jason?
**Lenny:** To start, yes, help us understand just the business you run, this SaaStr. What is it you sell? What is the business? What is it you do, Jason?
**Jason Lemkin:** Lenny,说实话,我自己还在琢磨呢。也许你在某些方面也是。
**Jason Lemkin:** You know, I'm still trying to figure it out, Lenny. Maybe you are too in some ways.
**Lenny:** 确实是这样。
**Lenny:** Yeah, that's true.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我是一个二次创业者,天哪,2012 年我把自己的创业公司卖给了 Adobe 之后,就开始写博客,记录我犯过的所有错误。后来我们开始办一些小型聚会——你也办过聚会。在还没什么人做这件事之前,2015 年我们办了一场大型聚会,来了好几千人。后来我们每年在 SaaStr Annual 上接待一万人。我其实还投了将近两亿美元,全生命周期回报接近 10 倍,而且只投社区里的创始人。
但我之所以说"不确定",是因为人们接触我们是通过内容。我就是发自内心地想帮其他创始人看到错误、少犯一些。总之,我们是一个大型社区。我也做投资,但它逐渐变成了一门生意。一开始是没有收入的。Lenny 一开始肯定也没有收入,而我们的商业化比你更不是刻意为之的。但我们现在年收入是八位数,而且很辛苦。听起来很不错,做到八位数,但成本很高,尤其是活动那块。媒体那块几乎没什么成本,但也是很多工作。我们有一百个赞助商,你也知道,你的播客也有赞助商,但到了一定规模之后工作量就会暴增。比如让两个赞助商来赞助你的播客,发几封邮件就搞定了,不算什么工作。但如果你要做四个 Lenny 播客那种规模,它就会膨胀。
所以我们逐步建立了自己的市场推广团队,我也亲历了大家都经历过的那些挫折。然后,也许我有点跑题了。真正的转折点是这样的:在今年五月份之前,我们只有一个投入生产的 AI 智能体,叫 Deli,我们用它来做数字版 Lenny 和数字版 Jason,有非常有意思的发现。我们带着七位数的预算和八位数的营收目标去筹备今年那场一万人的活动,当时销售团队有两个人,薪资都是市场最高水平。我有很多缺点,但薪酬给到位和对人忠诚不在其中。结果这两个人就在活动现场辞职了。就在现场直接辞了。
好吧,这大概是我第三次遇到这种事了,也是我组建的第八个团队了。我转头对 Amelia——我们的首席 AI 官——说:"我们不再招销售了,彻底不招了。我们要用智能体去挑战极限,哪怕它还不完全好使。"我从 Deli 这个通用智能体的表现中知道它大概能行,因为在 Annual 大会之前,这个通用智能体——这个数字版 Jason——自己独立成交了一笔 7 万美元的赞助。所以当我看到一个水平型智能体,没有专门为销售训练过,也没有专门为市场推广训练过,居然能独立成交一笔单子——那我们就部署几个这样的应用吧。
我们有时间,但我真的没法再花 15 万美元年薪去雇一个初级 SDR 然后看他辞职了。我真的做不到了。批评我也好,但我就是没法再来一次。我觉得这其实是——当我跟领先 AI 公司的 CEO 们聊天时,他们其实也不太想这么做。他们希望销售团队越小越好,很大程度上是文化方面的原因。哪怕 Replit 只从零做到 2 亿,而不是 2.2 亿,如果代价是一个更小的销售团队,我觉得 John(Replit CEO)也能接受,对吧?所以这是一个持久性的趋势。
不管怎样,我们就开始挑战极限了。现在如果你走进 SaaStr 的办公室,其实挺好笑的。我们有 10 张桌子,以前坐的都是市场推广人员,现在每张桌上都贴着智能体的名字。Reply 代表 Replit,Quali 代表 Qualified,Arty 代表 Artisan。Agent Force 还需要个昵称,也许我们可以跟 Salesforce 一起想一个。那边角落办公室是 Amelia 的,我在办公室最后面,中间全是智能体。这是最安静的办公室。
总的来说,Lenny,以我们录制这期节目的时间点来看,核心发现是:净生产力基本持平。没有更好,也没有更差。但效率高得多,而且它能规模化,因为软件天然能规模化。我们可以聊聊学到了什么。我觉得很重要的一点是,训练这些智能体需要时间。它们不是开箱即用的。但当你把它们调教好了,当你用你最优秀的人或者你最好的话术去训练一个智能体时,那个智能体就能开始变成你最优秀销售的一个翻版。这就是我们学到的东西,也是怎么去完善它的方法。
我只是觉得——谁都可以批评我,你也好,看的人听的人也好——也许这样做不太酷。我不想再雇第 28 个会辞职的销售代表了。但在 AI 时代,我真的没法再来一次了。我觉得,是时候走到最前沿,看看我们能把这件事推到什么程度。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, you know, I am a two-time founder who started writing a blog, my god, in 2012 about all the mistakes I made after I sold my startup to Adobe. We started doing a couple meetups. You've done meetups. Before anyone did this stuff, we did a big meetup in 2015. Thousands of people came. Then we do 10,000 people a year at SaaStr Annual. I've actually also invested almost $200 million, almost 10x lifetime, only into founders from the community.
But the reason I don't know is what folks that do are connected to our content. I'm just passionate about helping other founders see mistakes and make less of them. So anyhow, we're a large community. I do invest but it turned into a business. There was no revenue in the beginning. I'm sure there was no revenue for Lenny in the beginning and ours was less intentional, but we do do eight figures of revenue a year and it's work. That sounds great, okay, to do eight figures, but there's a lot of costs, especially on the event side. The media side has almost no costs and it's work. We have a hundred sponsors and as you know, like you have sponsors, but there's a certain level where it becomes a lot of work. Like getting two folks to sponsor your podcast with a couple emails, no work, right? If you wanted to have like four Lenny podcasts, like it just scales.
So we have built our own go to market team over time and I've lived the frustrations folks have followed it. And then maybe I'm rambling a little bit. The interesting thing, the aha moment that happened to us is going into May of this year we had one AI agent in production called Deli that we both use for digital Lenny and digital Jason, really interesting learnings. And we went into our 10,000 person event this year with an eight, you know, a seven figure budget and eight figure topline and two folks on the sales team who were paid high end of market. I have many flaws, but paying well and being loyal are not one of them. And two of them just quit at the event. They just quit on site.
Okay. And this is like the third time I've done this, like the eighth team I've built. And I turned to Amelia, our chief AI officer, and I said, "We're done with hiring humans in sales. We're done. We are going to push the limits with agents, even if it doesn't quite work." Okay? And I knew from this Deli, this general agent, that it would sort of work because going into Annual, this general agent, this digital Jason closed a 70K sponsorship on its own. So when I saw that a horizontal agent, not trained for sales, not trained for GTM, could close one deal, like let's deploy a couple of these apps.
We have time and I just can't pay a junior SDR $150,000 a year to quit. I just can't. Criticize me, but I just couldn't do it one more time. And I actually think this is -- when I talk to CEOs at leading AI companies, they kind of don't want to do it either. They want to have the smallest sales teams they can as much for cultural reasons, right? Even if Replit only goes from zero to 200, it could have been 220 with a smaller sales team. I think John's okay with it, right? So, it's an enduring thing.
But anyhow, so we push the limits and now if you walk into SaaStr's office, it's kind of funny. We have 10 desks that used to be go to market people. They're all just labeled with our agents. Reply for Replit, Quali for Qualified, Arty for Artisan. Agent Force needs a nickname. Maybe we can make one up with Salesforce. There's Amelia's corner office at one end. I'm in the back of the office and it's just agents. It's the quietest office.
And net-net Lenny, here's the meta learning for when we're recording this. The net productivity is about the same. It's not better. It's not worse. But it's so much more efficient and it scales because software scales. And we can talk about what we've learned. I think it's important that it takes time to train these agents. They don't work out of the box. But when you dial them in, when you take your best person or your best script and you train an agent with your best person and best script, that agent can start to become a version of your best salesperson, your best person. And that's what we've learned and how to perfect it.
And I just think -- criticize me, anybody, you or anyone watching or listening, maybe it's not cool. I didn't want to hire my 28th rep that was going to quit. But I just couldn't do it one more time in the age of AI. I'm like, it's time to go to the bleeding edge and just see what we can push the limits here.
**Lenny:** 好的。我喜欢我们已经展开的这些方向。先帮听众完全理解你的业务——基本上这些人是在为你的大会卖赞助?
**Lenny:** Okay. I love all the directions we're already heading. So just to help people totally understand what your business is -- basically these people are selling sponsors for your conference?
**Jason Lemkin:** 他们卖两样东西,因为这跟深入讨论有关。他们卖赞助,平均大约七八万美元一个。
**Jason Lemkin:** They're selling two things, because it's just relevant to the deep dive. They're selling sponsorships which average about 70 to 80K.
**Lenny:** 然后他们还卖门票,这是高频量大的那部分?
**Lenny:** And then they're also selling tickets, which is the high volume?
**Jason Lemkin:** 对,这个可以理解为自助版本。他们卖的门票从几百美元到——如果你是个 VC 前一天晚上才决定来,可能要两千美元。好吧,对那些临时决定的 VC 我们不打折。早决定的创始人可以用大约成本的 10%-20% 买到票。卖这些票是需要下功夫的。你可以像你那样发一封邮件,大概就能把 Lenny Summit 填满。但如果你想把收入最大化,就得花功夫。要做滴灌式营销活动,要主动联系人,要重新激活三年前来过 Lenny Summit 的人——你想让他们回来,因为他们是好的参会者。这些都需要实打实的工作。
随着你的用户基数增长——你现在的 Lenny 新闻通讯有多少订阅者了?120 万?
**Jason Lemkin:** For this, it's like the self-serve version. They're selling tickets that are anywhere from a couple hundred bucks to -- if you're a VC that comes the night before, could be two grand. Okay. No gifts for VCs that decide the night before. Founders that decide early get it at about 10-20% of cost. And it's work to sell these tickets, right? And so you can just post an email like you do and you probably fill up Lenny Summit, but if you want to max it out, you got to do work. You got to do drip campaigns. You got to reach out to people. You have to reactivate folks that came to Lenny Summit three years ago, but you want them back because they're good people. And that just requires work.
And as your base scales, you know, you have how many people subscribe to Lenny's newsletter now? 1.2 million or something?
**Lenny:** 大约 120 万。
**Lenny:** 1.2 million roughly.
**Jason Lemkin:** 好。那这 120 万人里,一个人类愿意主动联系多少人?
**Jason Lemkin:** Okay. How many of those is a human willing to reach out to?
**Lenny:** 接近零?
**Lenny:** Approaching none?
**Jason Lemkin:** 两千个吧,差不多。
**Jason Lemkin:** 2,000. Yeah.
**Lenny:** 想象一下你雇了一个 21 岁的、刚从社区大学毕业的 SDR,然后对他说:"这是我的名单,120 万人,开始打电话吧。"
**Lenny:** Imagine you hired a 21-year-old SDR fresh out of junior college and said, "Here's my list, 1.2 million people. Start calling them."
**Jason Lemkin:** 我想让他们都来参加 Lenny Summit。总之,我们有低端那块业务,就是门票,大概每年四五百万美元。然后我们有高端的销售周期。这两块非常不同。实际上它们用的是不同的智能体。另外我们还有一个专门用来召回流失客户的智能体。所以我们有高端流失客户和低端流失客户两个智能体,它们有不同的工作流程,我们目前甚至使用不同的供应商。目前是不同的供应商。
**Jason Lemkin:** I want them to come to Lenny Summit. But anyhow, so we have this low-end version, which is tickets, right? Which is four or five million a year. And then we have this higher-end sales cycle. And they're very different. And actually, they have different agents. And then we have a different agent to get people to come back. Lapsed people. So we have lapsed high-end and low-end agents. And they have different workflows and we actually use different vendors for now. For now we use different vendors.
**Lenny:** 好的。那在进入这个"未来世界"之前,你以前有多少个 SDR?销售团队有多少人?
**Lenny:** Okay. And so previously, before this future world, how many SDRs did you have? How many salespeople in the team?
**Jason Lemkin:** 我们通常有两到三个 SDR,最多五个 AE(客户经理)。
**Jason Lemkin:** We would have two to three SDRs and up to five AEs.
**Lenny:** 好的。也就是大约八九个人全职负责 SaaStr 的赞助招商和门票销售。
**Lenny:** Okay. So like eight, nine people full-time working on SaaStr to bring in sponsors and to bring in tickets.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。虽然很大一部分是来自于自然进线(inbound)和续约,但确实,要管理这个业务、管理销售管理和市场推广,差不多八到九个人。现在我们只有 1.2……
**Jason Lemkin:** Yes. Although yes, a lot of it is inbound and renewals but yes, to manage that business, to manage the sales management and go to market. Let's call it 8 to 9 in go to market. Now we have 1.2...
**Lenny:** 1.2……
**Lenny:** 1.2...
**Jason Lemkin:** 个人类。
**Jason Lemkin:** Humans.
**Lenny:** 个人类。1.2 个人类。
**Lenny:** Human. 1.2 humans.
**Jason Lemkin:** 20 个智能体。AI 智能体。
**Jason Lemkin:** 20 agents. AI agents.
**Lenny:** 1 点——0.2 个人类是什么意思?
**Lenny:** 1 point -- what is a 0.2 human?
**Jason Lemkin:** Amelia 是我们的首席 AI 官,负责管理所有事务。她把 20% 的时间花在管理智能体、编排(orchestrate)智能体上。
**Jason Lemkin:** Amelia, who's our chief AI officer, who runs everything. She spends 20% of her time managing the agents, orchestrating the agents.
**Lenny:** 好的。
**Lenny:** Okay.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我觉得这一点很多人不太理解——大家聊到这个概念,但并没有真正理解它意味着什么。我们可以深入聊聊。
**Jason Lemkin:** Which is something I think people don't -- let's get into that. They talk about, but they don't actually understand what that means.
**Lenny:** 是的,好的。我一定想在这个话题上多花些时间。好的。所以,你以前有大约 10 个全职员工,现在你有 1.2 个人类,你说了 20 个智能体。
**Lenny:** Yeah. Okay. I definitely want to spend time there. Okay. So, you used to have about 10 people full-time. Now you have 1.2 humans and you said 20 agents.
**Jason Lemkin:** 20 个智能体,对。
**Jason Lemkin:** 20 agents. Yeah.
**Lenny:** 好的。你说的是,这个业务的表现和你有 10 个人类的时候差不多。现在你有 20 个智能体,业务表现相当。
**Lenny:** Okay. And what you're describing is the business is doing very similarly to what it was when you had 10 humans. Now you have 20 agents. The business doing the same.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对。但听我说,如果还有两个优秀的人才愿意加入,别误会——每家快速增长的公司都一样——我明天就会录用他们。如果你去 Vercel、去 Replit,他们都会跟你说同样的话。我们刚在伦敦参加完 Abundant 活动,当时我碰到了 OpenAI 管理层的 Maggie,她说他们现在根本招不够企业级销售代表。
但 AI 正在替代的是中等水平及以下的人。那些不太理解 Linear 是做什么的人,那些不太知道什么是 pull request 或者 Replit 到底怎么用的人。AI 能做得比他们更好。不是比最优秀的人更好,对吧?所以我当然希望有更多人类加入,但我不会再雇一个入职三个月了还不知道 SaaStr 做什么的人。我没法再这样了。而且你也不需要这么做。我觉得你不需要。
所以事情是这样的:AI 正在替代那些人们今天本来就不想做的工作,正在淘汰中等水平和平庸的人。他们的工作确实面临风险。最优秀的人类确实会从 AI 中获得超能力,但我不确定其他人也会。这是个警示。但我当然希望不止一个人。不过归根到底,1.2 个人类加上 20 个 AI 智能体,产出跟 10 个人类市场推广人员差不多。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. Now listen, if I had two more great humans that wanted to join, don't get me wrong, and this is true of every fast -- I would hire them tomorrow, okay? And if you go to Vercel, if you go to Replit, they're all going to tell you the same. I was literally in London when we were just at our Abundant event with Maggie who's in the leadership of OpenAI. She said they just can't hire enough enterprise reps now.
Okay. But what it is replacing are the midpack and below. The ones that don't really understand what Linear does. The ones that don't really know what a pull request is or exactly how Replit works. The AI can do better. Not than the best, right? So I would love to have more humans, but I'm not going to hire someone that after their third month in the job doesn't know what SaaStr does. I just can't do that one more time. And you don't need to. I don't think you need to.
So this is the thing. AI is replacing the jobs people don't want to do today and it is displacing the midpack and the mediocre. They are -- their jobs are at risk. They are at risk. The best humans, it is true that they will get superpowers from AI, but I'm not sure the rest will. It's a cautionary tale. But I would love to have more than one. But at the end of the day, 1.2 humans plus 20 AI agents is doing about what 10 human GTMs did.
**Lenny:** 哇。好的。我想花点时间聊聊你构建的不同智能体,但首先,从更宏观的视角来看,经历了这些之后——你觉得市场推广的世界在明年、在未来几年会怎样变化?
**Lenny:** Wow. Okay. I want to spend time on the different agents you've built, but first of all, just kind of zooming out, having gone through this experience -- how do you see the world of go to market changing next year, in the coming years?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所有的打法(play)都有效。在 AI 时代,出问题的是剧本(playbook)。所有的打法都有效。外呼(outbound)仍然有效。网络研讨会(webinar)仍然有效。播客仍然有效。活动仍然有效。所有这些东西都有效。11 Labs 为什么要出去做路演?因为有效。他们为什么要上 Lenny 的播客?因为有效。所以打法都有效,只是剧本坏了——因为对于那些没有赶上 AI 浪潮的公司来说,增长减速太多了,什么都好像不灵了。其实是灵的,只是比 2021 年差了很多,但打法本身仍然有效。只是投资回报率不够了。对 2021 年式的旧派 SaaS 来说,预算已经不够了。
那些爆发式增长的公司呢?Vercel、Replit、11 Labs,它们有如此巨大的需求,所以它们也在用这些打法,但方式不同。它们是从超级 PLG(产品驱动增长,Product-Led Growth)的角度出发,因为需求太旺盛了,它们往往在挑选要跟哪些潜在客户交流。比如 Bolt 大概在 Replit 和 Lovable 之后排第三。但我以前的一个销售在那边负责销售。我在他们从零做到五千万美元、只用了大概六个月的时候跟他聊过。他说:"说实话,我们线索太多了。我们一半的工作就是挑选回复哪些人。"他说:"我们从 Lovable 那里抢了一个七位数的单子,就因为 Lovable 那边没人回电话。"
传统的 B2B SaaS 公司,哪怕是年收入达到几十亿的,哪怕是 HubSpot 这样的,它们都不会有多到回不过来的优质线索。所以那是一个不同的世界。不容易,但是不同的世界。而另一端,那些什么都好像不灵的公司,只是因为需求蒸发了。所以两端在 2026 年都有动力去挑战 AI 在市场推广方面的极限。高速增长的那些公司,没法触达每一个人、没法做每一件事。不是所有公司都会像 Vercel 那样自己内部构建——我们可以聊聊为什么大多数公司不应该自建、而应该购买,理由和软件行业一直以来的道理是一样的。
在低端那边,你仍然需要人类,但 2026 年的核心主题将是极致效率。所以,只要 AI 能做的事情,需求就是无穷无尽的。每个人要么在寻求更高的效率,要么就是应对不了铺天盖地的自然进线。
也许这没有完全回答你的问题,或者我有点跑题了,但世界就是这么在变化的。我们上次做这期节目的时候,也不算很久以前,在 AI 爆发之前,所有 B2B 公司其实都差不多。它们的增速略有不同。有的爆发快一点,像 Samsara;有的慢一点,像 UiPath,但说真的,它们的增长路径本质上是一样的——差不多的年合同价值(ACV),差不多的单笔交易规模。
现在,就像风投领域和其他一切一样,出现了剧烈的两极分化。低端那边全是靠涨价和把产品硬塞给存量客户。高端那边,我们看到了自 2020 年以来从未有过的景象——所有人同时在市场上。所有人同时在市场上。这一点很多人没有理解。为什么这些公司表现这么好?为什么它们爆发式增长?因为这不只是软件本身。我们喜欢这些东西,Lenny,对吧?所有这些新工具。我们喜欢。但不是只有一家律所在看 Harvey,而是所有律所。不是几个人在试着在互联网上做视频,而是所有人都在试着在互联网上做视频。
**Jason Lemkin:** All the plays work. It's the playbooks that are kind of broken in the age of AI. All the plays work. Outbound still works. Webinars still work. Podcasts still work. Okay. Events still work. All this stuff works. Why is 11 Labs out doing a road show, right? It works. Why do they go on Lenny's podcast? It works. So, the plays all work. It's just the playbooks are broken because for folks that aren't in the age of AI, growth has decelerated so much that nothing seems to work. Okay, it's working. It just works so much worse than 2021, but the plays still work. They just don't have enough ROI. There's not enough budget for old school SaaS from 2021.
The ones that are blowing up, right? The Vercels, the Replits, the 11 Labs, they have so much demand that they're still running the plays, but they're doing them differently. They're doing them from a hyper PLG focus because there's so much demand and they're often picking and choosing which prospects to talk to. So, like, for example, Bolt is probably a distant number three behind Replit and Lovable, right? But one of my old sales guys runs sales there. And I talked to him when they went from 0 to 50 million in like six months. He's like, "We honestly just have so many leads. Half our job is picking which ones to respond to, right?" And he's like, "We closed a seven figure deal we stole from Lovable because no one called them back at Lovable."
So your traditional B2B SaaS company, even ones at billions of revenue, even the HubSpots, they don't have so many great leads they don't call them back. So that is a different world. Not easy, different world. And then this world where nothing seems to be working is just because the demand has evaporated, right? So both ends have an incentive in 2026 to push the limits for AI for go to market. The ones that are hyper-growing can't touch everybody, they can't do everything. Not everyone like Vercel will build their own internally -- we can talk about why most folks should not build, they should buy, for the same reasons it's always been true in software.
At the low end, you still need humans, but ruthless efficiency is going to be the name of the game for 2026. So, anything where AI works, the demand is inexhaustible. Everyone's either looking for more efficiency or they just can't service the massive amount of inbound they have.
And so maybe that doesn't totally answer your question or I got a little bit off track, but that's how the world's changing. Like, when we first did this, which wasn't that long ago, pre the AI explosion, all B2B companies were kind of the same. They grew at somewhat different rates. Some blew up faster like a Samsara. Some took longer like a UiPath, but come on. They all kind of grew the same way for the same ACV for the same deal size.
Now, just like in venture and everything else, it's wildly bifurcated, right? You've got the low end, which is all about price increases and forcing things onto the base. And at the high end, we have something we've never seen since 2020, which is everyone in the market at once. Everyone in the market at once. This is something that people don't understand. Why are these companies doing so well? Why are they blowing up? Because it's not just the software. We love this stuff, Lenny, right? All these new tools. We love them. But it's not one law firm looking at Harvey. It's everyone. It's everyone, right? It's not a few folks looking at video on the internet. It's everyone trying to make video on the internet.
**Lenny:** 因为来自高层的推动力很大:我们必须采用 AI,我们必须更高效。现在所有人都在动——不像传统的那种。传统的指标是,在大多数品类中,每年只有 3% 到 5% 的潜在客户处于购买状态。
**Lenny:** Because there's a lot of push from the top of like, we need to adopt AI. We need to be more productive. Now, everyone -- not the traditional, like the traditional metric was in most categories, 3 to 5% of prospects would be in market a year.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以你会发天量邮件、打陌生电话(cold call),期望也许 2026 年他们终于愿意把 Salesforce 换成你的新产品了。加在一起,5%。在很多品类中,我们现在看到超过 50% 的人处于购买状态。这就彻底改变了一切。打法仍然有效——亲自出现、真正了解你在卖什么、知道怎么走完采购流程——这些都有效。但除了 2020 年那种诡异的人为窗口期之外,我们从来没见过这么多人同时处于购买状态。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, you'd send a trillion emails and you do cold calls and you'd hope maybe 2026 was the time they're willing to dump Salesforce for your new product. So, add all that up, 5%. In many categories, we're north of 50% in market. So, that just totally changes. The plays still work. Showing up in person, actually knowing what the hell you're selling, knowing how to get through procurement, all of those work. But other than these weird windows, artificial windows in 2020, we've never had so many people in market at once.
**Lenny:** 这是专门针对 AI 产品的情况,还是……?
**Lenny:** And this is for AI products specifically, or...?
**Jason Lemkin:** 对,那些具有巨大投资回报率的 AI 产品。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. That have massive ROI.
**Lenny:** 嗯,提升生产力的。
**Lenny:** Yeah. Productivity.
**Jason Lemkin:** Lenny,我需要在我的公司引入一个氛围编程(vibe coding)工具。好,去做调研吧。比较 Replit、Lovable 和其他工具,然后买一个。Harvey——为什么 Harvey 和其他做法律科技的公司表现这么好?当然它们本身是很好的工具,但关键是所有人都在说:我们现在必须用 AI 来自动化审合同和审文件。他们想要一个行业领导者,然后他们就会行动。这种势头会放慢的,不是说每年所有人都能在市场上,企业承受不了那种节奏。
所以这某种程度上是 AI 泡沫的一个版本,终将结束,在某些方面我们会回归到传统模式。但当所有人都同时在市场上的时候,你经营整个业务的方式就彻底不一样了。所以增长最快和增长最慢的公司都有动力在这个领域使用 AI,只是原因不同。
**Jason Lemkin:** I need to bring a vibe code tool into my company, Lenny. Okay. Go out and do the work. Compare Replit, Lovable, and whoever else and buy one. Okay. Harvey -- like why are Harvey and the others in legal doing so well? I mean they're great tools but everyone's like we need to automate how we review contracts and documents with AI now. They want a leader and they're going to do it. And that will slow down, like not everybody can be in market every year. It exhausts an enterprise.
So this is a version of the AI bubble that will end and we will revert in some ways to old school. But when everybody's in market, it just changes how you run the whole thing. So the fastest growing ones and the slowest growing ones both have incentives to use AI here, just for different reasons.
**Lenny:** 具体到销售这个职业呢?SDR 会被完全替代吗?AE 呢?你怎么看销售职业的未来?
**Lenny:** How about the sales profession specifically? Are SDRs going to be replaced fully? AEs? How do you see the future of the sales profession?
**Jason Lemkin:** 那种经典的初级 SDR——从大学毕业被招来发邮件、回复进线邮件、也许当天或者第二天才回复——我们不需要他们了。我们将不再需要他们中的大多数人。那些上门敲门的 SDR 在很多行业不会被取代。但基于邮件流程的 SDR,明年将被 AI 取代 90%。
不同的人有不同的术语。我把 BDR(业务发展代表)定义为那些负责筛选进线潜在客户的人——就是我们看到的"联系我们"表单。我们今天就已经不需要他们了。明年他们就该消失了。在 AI 时代,没有任何理由让我点了"联系我们"之后,等一两天,然后一个 21 岁的、都不知道 Linear 是做什么的年轻人跟我说:"嘿,你们是做什么的?你们愿意付多少钱?也许这周晚些时候我帮你安排一个跟 Lenny 的电话。"用 AI 完全没有必要这样做了。光是我们的一个智能体就能在网站上完全筛选每一个访客,而访客甚至都不知道自己正在被筛选。它直接帮他们约好跟销售的会议。
所以这种基于邮件的 SDR 和人类来筛选线索——说实话对客户体验也不好,被筛选的感觉并不好,对吧?——明年大部分将会消失。至于 AE,也就是经典的人类销售,目前大部分工具还没有完全到位。我觉得到明年年底大约 70% 的岗位还是安全的,但我认为之后会降到 40% 到 50%。从我们在其他品类看到的情况来说,我看不出有什么理由一个优秀的智能体不能也完成交易。
如果价格没有太多需要谈判的空间,而且智能体比人类更了解产品,至少对于你我这样的人来说——我是说,你喜欢跟一个真人销售聊天吗?
**Jason Lemkin:** The classic SDR junior kid that is hired out of college to send emails and respond to inbound emails and maybe get back to them later that day or the next day -- we don't need them. We're not going to need most of them. SDRs that knock on doors in a lot of industries aren't going to be displaced, right? The email-based cadence SDR will be 90% displaced by AI next year.
The people have different nomenclature. I call BDRs folks that qualify leads coming in. The "contact me" that we see -- we have no need for them today. They should be extinct next year. There is no reason in the age of AI I have to hit "contact me," wait a day or two for a 21-year-old that doesn't know what Linear does to say, "Hey, what do you do? How much are you willing to pay me? Maybe I'll set up a call with Lenny later this week." There is no need to do that with AI. The AI, our AI alone, one of our agents fully qualifies everybody on the website so they don't even know they're being qualified. It just sets up the meeting with the salesperson.
So this SDR, this email-based SDR and this human qualifying leads, which is not good for the customer -- it doesn't feel good to be qualified, does it? -- they will be mostly extinct next year. I'm guessing with the AE, the classic human doing the sales, most of the tools aren't there yet for the most part. I think 70% of their jobs will be safe by the end of next year, but I think it will decline to 40 or 50. I don't think there's any reason, what we're seeing in other categories, a great agent can't close a deal too.
If there's not a lot to negotiate in price and the agent knows the product better than a human, at least for folks like you and me -- I mean, do you like to talk to a human in sales?
**Lenny:** 有时候?不过我更愿意跟一个真正聪明的 AI 聊。
**Lenny:** Sometimes? I'd rather just chat with a really smart AI.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。所以这些都在推进中。但经典的那种——而且棘手的部分是——很多人问这个问题,Lenny。他们说:"好的,Jason,你的数据我看到了。但如果 SDR 和 AE 的初级岗位都没了,我们怎么培养销售这个职业?"这是整个 AI 领域的一个元问题。我们已经看到 AI 正在把优势集中到中高层,不是吗?我们也看到很多公司在缩减初级岗位的招聘——Shopify 和其他公司就不说了——他们宁愿要一个有六七年经验的、已经是 Cursor 高手的工程师,也不想去培训一个新人。今天这样做效率更高,对吧?我相信你跟很多人聊天时也看到了这种趋势。销售领域也会这样。
所以那些知道怎么管理智能体、怎么与智能体协作的人,那些真正了解自己产品的人——他们会变得更有价值。而其他人会变得没那么有价值。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. So, that's all in progress now. But the classic -- and the tough part -- and a lot of folks ask this question, Lenny. They say, "Okay, Jason, I see that in your data. How are we going to build the sales profession if there's no entry-level jobs in SDRs and AEs?" And that's a meta question across all of AI. We're already seeing AI concentrate strength in sort of mid-tier folks, isn't it? And we're already seeing lots of folks cut back on entry-level hires, you know, Shopify and others aside, where they'd rather have the six or seven year old engineer that's a Cursor machine rather than train some kid. It's just more efficient today, right? I'm sure you see that across a lot of folks you talk to. It's going to happen in sales, too.
So the folks that know how to manage an agent, work with an agent, the folks that know their product for real -- they're going to become more valuable. And the rest are going to become less valuable.
**Lenny:** 这很有意思,因为我是一堆创业公司的投资人,你也是。我实际上看到很多公司在招市场推广和销售人员。你觉得这是暂时的吗?因为需求太大了,所以他们想"我们需要人手",然后这些岗位会逐渐被 AI 取代?还是说他们本来就在找你说的那种真正高级的人才?
**Lenny:** It's interesting because I'm an investor in a bunch of startups, as are you, and I'm actually seeing a lot of asks for go to market people, sales people. Do you think this is kind of temporary because there's so much demand, they're like, "Oh, we need people to help," and then this will start to become more AI over time? Or are they just looking for these really senior people that you're talking about?
**Jason Lemkin:** 听着,不管你是管理人类还是编排智能体,你都需要领导者。我们还没有造出一个自主 CEO。我知道 Twitter 上有人说 AI 会取代 CEO,但我觉得那与其说是字面意思,不如说是一种比喻。所以我们仍然需要 C 级高管,仍然需要 VP(副总裁)。管理一百万条线索已经变得工作量极大了,对吧?五十万条线索也是。我们需要这些领导者。
问题在于——我也看到你发出的招聘信息和你的推文了——问题是,现有剧本下的那些人里,有多少是适合未来的人选。我觉得可能 20%。在我交流过的人中,20% 的人仍然在对 AI 感到恐慌。我可以告诉你怎样成为那 20%,如果你想知道的话。但我觉得很少有人能像 Vercel 的 Janine 那样成功转型。所以我们拭目以待。
未来会有大型组织。比如 Denise 在 Slack 和 Salesforce 待了 14 年后,刚去 OpenAI 做 CRO(首席营收官)。她会在很高的层面上工作,所以她可能不需要知道怎么具体部署智能体。但你的公司想要招的大多数人——我只是建议确保他们真的愿意撸起袖子做 2026-2027 年的工作。仅仅因为他们在 Slack 待过,不代表他们具备你的创业公司需要的技能。
**Jason Lemkin:** Well, listen, whether you're managing humans or orchestrating agents, you need leadership. We've yet to produce an autonomous CEO. I know folks talk about how on Twitter that AI will replace the CEO, but I don't know that that's literal as much as figurative, right? So, we're still going to need the C-suite. We're still going to need VPs. I mean, it's become so much work to manage a million leads, right? A half million leads. We need these leaders.
Whether -- the question is, and I've seen your call out there and I saw your tweet on it -- the question is how many of the folks that had the current playbooks are the right folks for the future. I'm thinking maybe 20%. Of the folks I talked to, 20% are still -- for, are still panicking about AI. And I'll tell you how to not -- how to be in the 20% if you want to know. But I think very few, like the Janine from Vercel, are going to make the jump. So we'll see.
There will be huge organizations, right? Like Denise just went from Slack and Salesforce after 14 years to be CRO at OpenAI. She's going to be working pretty high level, right? So she may not need to know how to implement the agents. But most of the folks your companies want to hire -- I would just make sure they really want to roll up their sleeves and do the job of 2026-2027, right? Just because they worked at Slack does not necessarily mean they have the skills at your startup.
**Lenny:** 你说你有一些建议,可以帮助人们真正成为那 20%。如果有人听到这里想:"完了,我的工作要保不住了。"他们应该专注于什么?
**Lenny:** You said that you had some tips for folks to actually be this 20%. What are some -- if someone's listening to this like, "Oh man, my job is in trouble." What should I focus on?
**Jason Lemkin:** 这听起来很简单。它确实有用,但几乎没有人在做。选一个工具——一个智能体、一个智能体化的工具——来解决你的一个问题。选什么几乎不重要——选最痛的那个或者最紧迫的那个就行。可以是客户支持,可以是 SDR,可以是进线筛选。选一个。选一个领先的供应商。我不在乎你选哪个。我们可以聊怎么选供应商,但选一个对你好的、你喜欢的领先供应商,然后自己动手做。训练智能体。导入数据。做迭代。搞明白这个东西到底怎么运作的。
那些今天感到迷茫的人,都是从来没自己动手做过的人。我们实际上已经变成了一个咨询公司。Lenny,这有点疯狂。我还不确定怎么看待这件事。但我们真的刚做了一个项目。Amelia——我们的首席 AI 官——和 Mia 主导了这件事。我们跟一家上市的 B2B 公司开了个电话会议,市值超过 100 亿美元,你会以为它们是 AI 领域的领导者。结果我们跟他们的团队交流后发现他们说:"我们很吃力。"首先,不可能的。其次,我们问他们:"你们自己动手做了多少?你们自己亲自做过吗?"二十个人的电话会议上,鸦雀无声。没有一个人自己做过。
所以他们以为可以拿一个没经过训练的智能体,不做任何训练,就丢给一群二十来岁的年轻 SDR,然后它就会自动卖东西。事情不是这样运作的,对吧?
这些智能体的工作方式是这样的——有很多听起来吓人的术语。导入(ingestion)、编排(orchestration)、训练(training)。其实没那么难,各位。只是跟以前不一样。本质上还是我们做了十多年的 B2B 那一套。你打开一个网站,给它一个你公司网站的 URL,给它一个内部 Wiki 的 URL,给它一个培训文档的 URL。也许你再上传一份产品说明书,上传几份文件。它导入数据。导入的意思就是上传、处理数据,再做一些你不太需要了解的事情——一些 RAG(检索增强生成)、一些向量化——这些真的不重要。你上传一些东西,它大致了解了,但还不太行。
然后它会把这些转化成问题——理想情况下会转化成问题,然后你回答这些问题,它就会越来越好。你回答和训练得越多,它就越好。训练本质上就是回答问题、不断改进。所以,先上传一堆你的资料,然后花几个小时去训练它,通常会有供应商的人来帮忙,他们叫前线部署工程师(forward deploy engineer),这个称呼听起来有点吓人,但意思就是有人来帮你做这件事。
你上传你的东西,努力让它做对,然后你基本上要确保它是对的——做质量保证(QA)测试。每天当那个 AI SDR 发出邮件或做练习邮件时,它会说一些蠢话。也许是幻觉(hallucination),具体叫什么技术术语真的不重要。你去纠正它。如果你这样做 30 天,每天花一两个小时纠正那些错误,到第 30 天它就会相当不错了。
这件事——任何在 B2B 或 SaaS 领域待过的人都能做到。任何人都能做到我刚才描述的事情。这跟我们以前做过的其他事情没有本质区别,只是流程不同。但没有人在做。大家都在恐慌。如果你能去做这件事——随便选一个工具,选 Agent Force、选 Qualified、选 Artisan、选什么都行——如果你能做到并让它投入生产,你就会变得极度抢手。你刚才提到的那些需要招市场推广人员的公司,都会雇你。你甚至有可能成为他们的首席智能体化市场推广官(chief agentic GTM officer)。因为几乎任何人只要愿意都能做到这件事。只是需要一个月的时间,大概 50 到 60 个小时,再加上评估供应商的时间。
以前啊,就像我们刚开始做播客的时候,你会请一个外包公司(agency),然后就撒手不管了。大家都是这么干的。但是——现在不能这么干了。那些外包公司根本不知道怎么做这些事。你必须自己动手。但如果你真的去做了,天哪,你会非常厉害。你会学到AI智能体(agent)的边界在哪里,能做什么、不能做什么。然后你就知道怎么去做下一个了,对吧?
所以我们在 Agent Force 上已经走得很远了,这是 Salesforce 的产品,Marc 经常提到它,但我们可能是同等规模的公司里唯一真正在用它的。我告诉你一个很有意思的秘诀。我们之前有三个智能体在做销售工作。经过几个月的训练和学习,我们把它压缩成了一个提示词(prompt)。"Prompt"是另一个听起来挺吓人的词,其实就是一段文字,描述你想让这东西干什么。
明白吧?我们把那个提示词拿过来,交给 Agent Force。一天之后效果就相当不错了。所以你会发现——如果你能做成第一个,那会非常非常难,简直是痛苦的。但第二个就会容易很多。然后如果你能自己搞定这些,你就会成为AI领域的宇宙之王。但如果你在等你团队的人来做,等外包公司来做,我觉得你最终会被淘汰。对吧?所以就是这样——大家都把我们当成专家来请教。我们不是什么专家——我们只是做了20遍而已。
**Jason Lemkin:** It's going to sound simple. It will work and almost nobody's doing this. Pick a tool, an agent, an agentic tool to solve one of your problems. It doesn't almost matter -- just one that's the most painful or the one that's most acute. It could be support. It could be SDR. It could be inbound qualification. Pick one. Pick a leading vendor. I don't care which one it is. Okay? We can talk about how to pick a vendor, but pick a leading vendor that treats you well, that you like, and do it yourself. Train the agent. Ingest the data. Do the iterations. Understand how this damn thing works.
Okay. The folks that are lost today have never done it. We literally -- we've turned into a consulting shop. Lenny, it's kind of crazy. I don't know what I think about it, but we literally just did a job. Amelia, our chief AI officer, and Mia, she drove it. We did a call with a public B2B company worth well over 10 billion that you would think is an AI leader. Okay? And we did a call with their team and they're like, "We're struggling." Okay. One, no chance. Two, we asked them, "How much of this have you done yourself?" Like, "Have you done it yourself?" And it was just crickets on this call of 20 people. No one had done it themselves.
So, they thought they could take an untrained agent with no training and just magically give it to a bunch of young 20-year-old SDRs and this magically would sell on its own. It doesn't work that way, right?
So, the way all these agents work is -- there's a lot of jargon which is intimidating. Ingestion, orchestration, training. It's not that hard, guys. It's just different. It's the same B2B stuff we've been doing for over a decade. You go to a website, okay? You give it a URL of your website. You give it a URL of what your wiki is. You give it a URL of your training docs. Maybe you upload your prospectus. You upload a few documents. It ingests the data. And ingesting means it uploads. It means it processes the data and it does some other stuff you don't really need to know. Some RAG, some vectoring -- it really doesn't matter. You upload some stuff and it kind of knows it and isn't great at it.
And then it will turn it into -- ideally it will turn it into questions and you answer these questions and they will get -- the more you answer and train it. Training is just answering questions and getting better and better. So, first you upload a bunch of your stuff. Then you spend hours training it, often with the help of a vendor, someone called a forward deploy engineer, which is a scary term. It means someone that's going to help you do this.
You upload your stuff, you try to get it right, and then you basically have to make sure it's right. QA testing. And every day when that AI SDR sends out emails and does practice emails, they will say some dumb things. Maybe it's hallucinations. It really doesn't matter what the technical term is, and you correct it. And if you do this for 30 days and every day you spend an hour or two correcting those mistakes, by the 30th day it's going to be pretty good.
And this is -- anyone can do this that has been in B2B or SaaS. Anyone can do what I just described. It is not that different than other things we've done. It's just sequenced differently. But nobody does this. Everyone's panicked. And if you can go do this -- pick any tool, pick Agent Force, pick Qualified, pick Artisan, pick whatever you want -- if you can go do this and get it live into production, you're hyper employable. All the companies you talked about that need a GTM person, they will hire you. You could imaginably be their chief agentic GTM officer. Because almost anyone can do this if they want to. It's just going to take a month of your time and it might take you 50 or 60 hours plus qualifying the vendor, right?
And in the old days, like when we diverted our podcast, you'd hire an agency and disappear. That's how you do this stuff. Don't -- it don't work that way. The agencies don't know how to do this. You've got to do it yourself. But if you do, man, you will rock. You will just rock and you will learn, right? You will learn the limits and you will learn what the agent can do and where it can't. And then you will learn how to do the next one, right?
So like we're pretty far on Agent Force, which is Salesforce's one, which Marc talks a lot about, but we're probably one of the only organizations of our size on it. I will tell you a cheat code which is pretty interesting. So, we've got -- we had three of these agents working for sales. After training it and learning it and spending months' time to learn it, we got it down to one prompt. And "prompt" is another almost intimidating word. A string of text that describes what you want this thing to do.
Okay? We took that prompt and gave it to Agent Force. Then a day later it was pretty good. So, you will -- if you can do one of these, it'll be really hard. It'll be brutal. Then the second one will be easier. And then you're going to be like the master of the universe in AI if you can do it yourself. But if you're waiting for people on your team to do it, if you're waiting for an agency to do it, I think you're going to be out of a job. Right? So this is like -- everyone comes to us as experts. We're not -- we're only experts because we did it 20 times.
**Lenny:** 我觉得在这里可能比较有帮助的是,快速过一遍你们搭建的那些智能体,它们分别做什么,哪些影响最大。然后在讲的过程中,说说你们用了什么产品,这些智能体背后是什么在驱动,你喜欢和不喜欢的分别是什么。
**Lenny:** I think what might be helpful here actually is to do a tour, kind of a quick tour of the agents that you've built and what they do, which ones have been most impactful. And then as you do that, what products you use, what powers these agents that you like and maybe don't like.
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果大家去 saastr.ai/agents,你会看到我们搭建的所有东西。全都列成了要点。你们可以直接抄我们的,我来带大家走一遍。但首先有两个注意事项。我在 Replit 上搭了很多东西,我们可以聊着玩。我差不多是前1%的用户,我特别喜欢它。但是,所有GTM(Go-To-Market,市场进入策略)相关的东西,我们没有一样是自己搭的。千万别自己搭。你不是 Vercel。你没有一个全职的超牛工程师愿意来做这个。
这些东西能不能自己搭?能。就跟自己搭一个 Notion 一样的道理。你能做到,但别做。这些产品确实要花钱,但也没那么贵,值得买。而且后续维护——创新速度太快了。即使你能招人在内部搭建,如果你不小心的话,几个月之后就会过时。
所以我们搭了很多东西。可以聊聊——我搭了一个创业公司计算器,90天内被使用了80万次……
**Jason Lemkin:** If anyone goes to saastr.ai/agents, you'll see everything we built. It's all bulleted out. You can copy us and I'll walk you through it. But two caveats or things at the top. I built a lot of stuff in Replit. We can talk about it for fun. I'm like a top 1% user. I love it. None of the GTM stuff we built ourselves. Don't build it yourself. You're not Vercel. You don't have a full-time wicked awesome engineer that wants to build this.
Could all this stuff be built yourself? It's the same idea of building your own Notion. You could do it, but don't do it. These products are expensive. They're not so expensive. It's worth it. And then maintaining -- the pace of innovation is so fast. Even if you can hire someone to build it internally, it will become obsolete if you're not careful in a couple months.
So, we've built a lot of stuff. We could talk about -- I built a calculator to do startup calculations, used 800,000 times in 90 days...
**Lenny:** 是做估值(valuation)的,对吧?
**Lenny:** For valuation, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 对,做估值的。我还搭了一个BP审阅工具(pitch deck reviewer),已经审阅了将近3000份商业计划书。很多好玩的东西,但GTM相关的东西没有一样是我们自己搭的。一样都没有。所以,再强调一遍,除非你是 Vercel,除非你有特殊理由,否则别自己搭。那期播客讲得很好,非常精彩。但别那么干,真的别。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. For valuations. I built a pitch deck reviewer that's reviewed almost 3,000 pitch decks. Lots of fun stuff, but none of the GTM stuff we built ourselves. None of it. So, just a caveat, don't build it yourself unless you're Vercel, unless you have a reason. That was a great pod. It was wonderful. Don't do it. Don't do that.
**Lenny:** 基本上就是说,除非你有非常厉害的GTM工程师?
**Lenny:** Basically, unless you have awesome go to market engineers?
**Jason Lemkin:** 而且他们真的非常非常想做这件事,迫不及待地想做。否则别做。我最开始做的——这可能不是别人会选择的起点,但有一些心得可以分享。我最开始用的是一个叫 Deli 的应用,它可以创建数字分身(digital clone)。你很早之前就用它做过 Lenny Bot。我看到你做了。什么?对,Lenny.com。去看看吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** And they really want to do it. They really are chomping at the bit to do it. Don't do it. So, I started -- and this is not where other folks would start, but there's some learnings. I started -- there's an app called Deli, which makes digital clones. And you used it for the Lenny bot a long time ago. I saw you do it. What's that? Yeah. Lenny.com. Yeah. Check that out.
**Lenny:** 我很早之前看到过,挺有意思的,但没有产生那种"啊哈"的感觉。
**Lenny:** I saw it a long time ago. It was interesting, but it didn't click.
**Jason Lemkin:** 然后 Brian Halligan——HubSpot 的创始人兼董事长——也做了一个。Deli 是 Sequoia 投资的,Brian 当时在 Sequoia 工作,所以他很早就帮了他们。然后我有了一个神奇的时刻——AI就是这样运作的——当我看到这两者的结合。你的 Lenny Bot 真的很棒——大家应该喜欢 Lenny Bot,因为它——如果大家还没试过的话,去试试。它吸收了(ingested)——我知道这个词对有些人来说有点吓人——它吸收了你做过的每一期访谈,你写过的每一个字。它能把所有内容整合在一起。它能把 Vercel 的故事和你跟 Dylan 在 Figma 的那期结合起来,合成出新的知识,效果相当不错。
但我觉得 Brian 的版本比你的好在一点——它就是 Brian 本人。而 Lenny Bot 有点像 Lenny,但也有点像你所有嘉宾的合集,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** And then Brian Halligan, who's the founder chairman of HubSpot, did one too. They're Sequoia backed and he was working at Sequoia, so he helped them early on. And then I kind of had a magic moment -- and this is the way it works in AI -- when I saw the combination of the two. So yours was really like -- people should love Lenny Bot because it's got -- if folks haven't tried it, try it. It is ingested -- I know, a scary term for some -- it is ingested every single interview you've ever done, right? Every word of content you've written. And it can combine them all together. It can combine the Vercel story and what you did with Dylan at Figma and can synthesize the knowledge and it's pretty good. It's pretty good.
What I liked about Brian's better than yours though was that it was Brian. And Lenny Bot is kind of Lenny, but it's also kind of all your guests, right?
**Lenny:** 我觉得那恰恰是它的超能力,对吧?我是这样看的——它不仅仅是我的智慧,它是我请过的每一位嘉宾的经验教训的总和。
**Lenny:** I think that's the superpower of it, right? That's the way I think about it -- is not just my intelligence. It's the lessons of every single person I've had on this podcast.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以它确实很棒。但我当时想,嘿,也许我终于可以做一个介于两者之间的东西。我当过创始人,我写过一万多篇内容。所以有点像 Brian,但我的内容比 Brian 多;我在产出量上不如 Lenny,但我有很多不同的声音。所以我就想,那就试试吧。我用了 Deli,结果一上来就把它搞崩了,因为我的数据量太大了,无法一次性吸收。花了大概一周才跑起来。
然后它就开始运作了。人们——就跟你的情况一样——有些人每天花好几个小时在另一个浏览器里跟数字版 Jason 对话。他们问的问题跟 Lenny Bot 不一样,他们会问销售方面的苦恼、怎么管理销售团队,还会上传 LinkedIn 个人资料问是否应该招某个人。然后一件有趣的事情发生了——因为我们做活动嘛,人们开始拿它来问活动相关的问题。"嘿,怎么退款?""嘿,能打折吗?""嘿,San Antonio County Fairgrounds 在哪里?Jason,它真的在旧金山湾区吗?""谁是演讲嘉宾?"诸如此类,问题没完没了。
对吧。我们之前用的是 Prifin Intercom,因为太忙了,经常两周后才回复。糟透了——史上最差的客服。然后那个智能体就自己开始做客服了。后来它还自己卖出了一个赞助,对吧?
所以起步的话——如果你还没开始的话,一个可以开始的地方就是客服(support),好吧?你不一定要买 Sierra,不一定要买 Decagon,也不一定要买 Finn,但一个潜在的起步点就是你的客服。你能不能提供优秀的7×24小时客服?大多数应用做不到。事实上,一些最严重的问题反而出在AI领域的领军公司——它们的网站上根本没有任何客服。
所以客服是一个起步点。然后我们接下来做的——对我们来说从长远来看——第二个就是,嘿,我们想试试外呼(outbound)。因为我们虽然没有像你那样的120万条名单,但我们有大约40万条,而且我们有他们的数据。所以我们想说,嘿,回来参加我们的 SaaStr 活动吧。
我们当时不知道该用什么工具,我告诉你一些心得。我们选了一家 YC 孵化的公司叫 Artisan。他们今年从零做到了1000万美元。我们选他们的原因很重要——他们是 SaaStr 的赞助商。我们当时不了解他们,但他们是最愿意帮助我们的。这是关键洞察。我们不知道 Artisan 是不是最好的——我现在有了自己的判断。当时我们还没有部署过。但另一家供应商跟我们争论,说:"你先付10万美元,我才帮你。"好吧。还有一家说他们害怕跟 SaaStr 合作,怕万一搞砸了会有负面公关。也可以理解。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, it's great. But, I thought, hey, maybe I could finally do one that's in between the two. Like I've been a founder and I've written 10,000 pieces of content. So, that's a little bit like Brian, but I have more than Brian and I'm not Lenny in terms of productivity, but I've got a lot of voices. So, I'm like, I'll try it. I used Deli. I instantly broke it because I had too much data to ingest. It took about a week to get going.
And it worked. People -- and it's just like you -- people, some people spend hours a day on digital Jason in another browser and they don't do what they do with Lenny, but they'll ask about their sales woes and what to do with their sales team and they'll upload LinkedIn and ask if they should hire people. And then a curious thing happened, which is that because we do these events, people started to use it for questions for the events. "Hey, how do I get a refund?" "Hey, can I get a discount?" "Hey, where is the San Antonio County Fairgrounds? Jason, is it really in the San Francisco Bay area?" Like, "Who's speaking?" And like there's endless questions.
Right. And we used to use Prifin Intercom and we're so busy we would answer like two weeks later. Like it was terrible -- worst support ever. And the agent just started doing support on its own. And then it did this thing where it sold a sponsorship on its own, right?
So start -- you can start with -- so one place to start if you haven't started is in support, okay? And you don't have to buy Sierra and you don't have to buy Decagon necessarily and you don't have to buy Finn, but one potential place to start is your support. Like, can you do great 24/7 support? Most apps can't. In fact, some of the worst offenders are AI leaders -- they have no support at all on their website.
So that's one place to start. And then the next place we started -- so for us the long game -- for the next place we started is, hey, we want to try outbound. Okay. Because we don't have 1.2 million names like you have but we have like 400,000. Okay. And we have data on them. So we wanted to say, hey, come back to our SaaStr event.
So we didn't know what to use and I'll tell you some learnings. So we picked a YC company called Artisan. They've gone like from nothing to 10 million this year. We picked them, but this is important why -- they were a sponsor at SaaStr. We didn't know and they offered to help us the most. This is the critical insight. We didn't know if Artisan was the -- I have opinions now. We hadn't deployed them. But another vendor argued with us. He said, "I need 100K up front before I help you." Okay. Another one said they were scared of SaaStr. They didn't want bad PR if it failed. Fair.
**Lenny:** 噢对,某家公司说:"我们不想做你们的第一个客户。"
**Lenny:** Oh, yeah. Certain company. "We don't want to be your first."
**Jason Lemkin:** 好吧。然后 Artisan 说:"我们来做。"当时我们什么都没有。这就是智能体领域有意思的地方——就像客服一样。如果你什么都没有,它不需要改变世界。如果你真的是从零开始做了点什么,那就是高投资回报率(ROI)。你一定会有回报,对吧?
所以我们做了那一个。我们训练了它,效果很好。我们发了大概6万封邮件,看到了相当高的回复率。然后我们说,好,我们试试入站(inbound)。我们不想出现那种令人沮丧的体验——一个销售员离职了,客户两周后才有人搭理。所以我们用了一家叫 Qualified 的供应商,是 Salesforce 前CMO创立的,现在做很多事但主要聚焦在入站资格审核(qualification)。这个马上就生效了。周六晚上11点有人想赞助我们,然后他就赞助了,效果非常好。但同样,是他们帮了我们。
**Jason Lemkin:** Okay. And Artisan said, "We'll do it." And we had nothing. And here's the interesting thing about agentic stuff. It's like support. If you have nothing, like it doesn't have to change the world. If you're literally doing nothing and you start to do something, that's high ROI. Like you're going to get return, right?
So, we did that one. We trained it. It's great. We did about 60,000 emails. Saw pretty high rates. Then we said, well, we'll try inbound. We don't want to have this depressing experience where a salesperson quits and it's two weeks later until they talk to someone. So we used this vendor called Qualified, which was founded by the ex-CMO of Salesforce, that does a lot now but mostly focuses on qualified stuff. That immediately worked. Like we had someone at 11 p.m. on Saturday night that wanted to sponsor and they sponsored and it worked great. But again they helped us.
**Lenny:** 所以这是一个通过邮件跟潜在客户沟通、向他们推销赞助的智能体?
**Lenny:** And this is an agent that is emailing with prospects, selling them on a sponsorship?
**Jason Lemkin:** 嗯,实际上是这样的——如果你去 saastrannual.com,任何人都应该买类似的产品,不一定非得是 Qualified,但那个对话气泡——就像 Intercom 那种——是专门用来做入站线索资格审核的。比如有人说:"嘿,我想赞助 Lenny 的播客。""抱歉,我们到2028年都卖完了,但如果你想进等待名单,在这里注册。"或者对我们来说更好的是,它会帮我们把不合适的人筛掉,对吧?这节省了大量时间,而且它是24小时工作的,然后直接帮你安排会议。
所以这个之所以是一个很好的第二个智能体,是因为没有人愿意做这件事。没有人类愿意拿起电话跟这些人聊。所以这完全是唾手可得的果实。但前两个智能体的关键——也是你选择智能体时的关键——是供应商最愿意帮你。
说到底,Lenny,这些东西底层都跑在 Claude 4 上。它们基本上就是一堆API(应用程序接口)拼在一起。这对软件来说不是什么新鲜事,对吧?底层就是一堆API的组合。但深入来看——我不想刺激任何人——很多AI GTM领域的领导者,他们在底层其实更像而不是更不像。底层的相似度远高于差异度。这并不意味着功能完全一样。但因为你必须训练它们,因为这需要一个月的时间,那些世界上最好的软件如果没有人帮你训练,99%的人不应该买。
所以今天——以前我们会去评估最好的软件。我们会做一个矩阵,比较各种功能。但现在你得多加一列:他们的驻场工程师(FDE,Forward Deployed Engineer)或者解决方案架构师、售前工程师(SE),你得跟他们聊,问:"谁会来帮我?"在你签支票之前,先跟 Lenny 通个电话,看看 Lenny 是不是真的会来帮你部署。如果 Lenny 特别给力,但另一家产品更好却不愿意帮你——那别选那家。这就是为什么我们这么成功。我们做的前两个——没错,它们是初创公司,所以更拼,但 Artisan 和 Qualified 就是真的跟我们一起干活。我们不笨,但这确实需要花功夫。我们需要帮助,对吧?
所以我学到的就是,你需要这样一个搭档——驻场工程师和供应商。而且很多好的供应商如果觉得帮不了你,实际上会拒绝你的生意。最好的那些今天拒掉了很多客户,这很有意思,对吧?
这里有一个对大家有用的经验。很多人会说——如果你用这些工具他们也会跟你说——"你的数据太多了。SaaStr 跟我们不一样。我们是初创公司,很小。你有40万人在数据库里。Lenny 有120万。不一样的。我只有300个客户。"或者200个客户。但我发现这是错的。如果你有300个客户,有多少人曾经访问过你的网站?3万。你有多少条线索?数据库里有多少人?你之前试图联系过多少人?肯定比一个人类能处理的多。
然后他们突然就有了那个"啊哈"时刻——"你的 HubSpot 里有多少人?"对吧?你的CRM(客户关系管理系统)里有多少人?他们一查,31000个。好的。有多少人在跟他们沟通?零。你不需要你我这样的规模才能让这些智能体发挥作用。你需要一点规模,需要一点流量,但不需要你想象的那么多。
所以所有这些经验——我们遇到很多人,说实话他们不愿意做这个功夫。他们会说:"SaaStr 有很大的规模,有很多年的积累。"这不是真的。训练方面也是一样的道理。我相信你在 Lenny Bot 上也见过。我原本以为有12年的内容积累才是关键。并不是。关键是有几个月的真正高质量内容,再加上一个长尾。你不需要那么深度的训练和那么多的数据。你只需要一些就能做得很好。
所以任何有一定规模的人,哪怕只有几百万美元收入及以上,都能从这些产品中受益,对吧?
所以我们先做了一个通用机器人,让我们到了一定水平。然后做了外呼SDR(销售开发代表)。然后做了入站。然后我们很早就跟 Salesforce 做了 Agent Force,一开始我们不知道拿 Agent Force 做什么,对吧?但我们决定用它来重新激活那些被销售团队判定为不值得花时间的人。那些主动联系过销售的人——每家创业公司都有这种情况——有个销售说:"你知道吗?这笔佣金不够多。我挺忙的,我跟 Meta 有一笔400万美元的单子在谈。"我们就把 Agent Force 专门用在这些人身上。用了非常类似的提示词来训练它。结果获得了70%的回复率。那些人其实非常渴望跟我们互动。
70%太惊人了。而这些都是人类不愿意做的事情,不值得他们花时间。我知道这听起来有点刻薄,可能会得罪一些销售人员。但现实是,你知道的,如果你处在一个线索充裕(lead rich)的环境里——我认为有线索充裕和线索匮乏(lead poor)两种环境,即使是大公司也是如此。对于初创公司来说,线索通常不够。但最终你会变得线索充裕。好吧?销售代表就是不会跟进很多线索。这就是人性。
你也一样。我打赌想赞助你的通讯(newsletter)的人比你能接受的多,对吧?你会跟每一个人都通电话吗?
**Jason Lemkin:** Well, it's literally -- if you go to saastrannual.com, and anyone should buy a product like this, it doesn't have to be Qualified, but the bubble, the Intercom-like bubble, is tuned to qualifying inbound prospects. Folks that say, "Hey, I want to sponsor Lenny's podcast." "Sorry, we're sold out through 2028, but if you want to be on the wait list, sign up here, okay?" Or even better for us, it would qualify folks out that weren't a good fit, right? It would save so much time and it would do it 24 hours, then it would just set up the meeting.
So, the reason that was a great second one was because no one was willing to do that. No human was willing to pick up the phone and talk to these people. So, it was such low-hanging fruit. But the key to the first two -- and if you're going to pick an agent -- is they offered to help the most.
At the end of the day, Lenny, these are all running on Claude 4. They're all basically using a bunch of APIs mashed together. That's not new to software, right? Mashing a bunch of APIs under the hood. But deep down, I don't want to trigger anybody -- many of the leaders in AI GTM, they're more similar than different. They're more similar than different under the hood. It doesn't mean the features are parity. So, because you have to train them, because it takes a month, the world's best software with no help training you is not one 99% of people should buy.
So today -- in the old days we would qualify the best software. We would make a matrix and we would compare features and do it. You got to do another column which is your forward deployed engineer or solution architect, your SE, and talk to them and say, "Who is going to help me?" And before you write a check, get on the phone with Lenny and see if Lenny's really going to do deployment. And if Lenny rocks and the other vendor is better and won't help you -- don't do it. And that's why we've had so much success. The first two we did -- yeah, they were startups, right? So they worked harder, but Artisan and Qualified just did the work with us. And we're not stupid, but it was work. We needed help, right?
And so that's what I learned is you have this partner, the FDE and the vendor. And a lot of them actually might not take your business if they don't think they can help you. The best ones turn away a lot of business today, which is interesting, right?
An interesting learning from this for folks is a lot of folks say -- and they would say it to you if you use these -- they say, "You have too much data. SaaStr is not like us. We're a startup. We're tiny. You have 400,000 people in your database. Lenny has 1.2 million. It's not like that. I only have 300 customers." Okay. Or 200 customers. What I've learned is that's wrong. If you have 300 customers, how many folks have come to your website ever? 30,000. How many leads do you have? How many folks in your database? How many folks have you tried to reach out to before? More than a human's doing.
And then they all of a sudden have the aha moment like, "How many folks do you have in your HubSpot?" Right? How many folks do you have in your CRM? They look it up. 31,000. Okay. How many folks do you have talking to them? Zero. You don't need the scale of numbers that you and I have to make these agents work. You need a little bit of scale and you need a little bit of traffic, but not as much as you think.
So all the learnings -- we have a lot of folks that honestly they don't want to do the work. They're like, "Well, SaaStr has a lot of scale. They have a lot of years." It's not true. And it turns out to also be true with the training. I'm sure you've seen it with Lenny. Like I thought having 12 years of content made the difference. Nah. It's having a couple months of really good content and a long tail beyond that. But you don't need as deep training and as much as you think. You just need a bit to be really good.
So anyone that has any scale whatsoever, even a couple million revenue and up, can benefit from these products, right?
So we did a general bot, got us to a certain place. Then we did SDR for outbound. Then we did inbound. And then we did Agent Force really early with Salesforce, and we didn't know what to do with Agent Force at first, right? But we decided we would reactivate the folks that sales decided was not worth their time. Folks that reached out to sales -- and this is true at every startup -- where a human says, "You know what? I don't think this is enough commission. I'm kind of busy. I got a $4 million deal with Meta going." We just took Agent Force just on those. Okay. And we trained it on a very similar prompt. It had 70% response rate. Those are people that were dying to interact with us.
70% is so good. And this is something humans were not willing to do. It wasn't worth their time. And I know this sounds critical and maybe I'm going to trigger some sales folks. But the reality is, if you know, if you're in a lead rich environment, okay, and I think there's lead rich and lead poor environments, for even big companies. But startups, like there's not enough. But eventually you become lead rich, okay? Reps just don't follow up with a lot of them. It's just human nature.
It's even you. I bet more folks want to sponsor the newsletter than you can let in, right? Do you pick up the phone with all of them?
**Lenny:** 我会回复所有人,然后告诉他们我们满了。但是……
**Lenny:** I reply to all of them and then we just tell them we're full. But...
**Jason Lemkin:** 对,但你明白我的意思,对吧?即使在你这个规模,你也能理解这个问题,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah, but you see the point, right? Even at your scale, you see the point, right?
**Lenny:** 是的,确实越来越难应付了。
**Lenny:** Yeah. Yeah. It gets challenging.
**Jason Lemkin:** 假设突然之间你有六个月的库存可以卖。我打赌如果你启动一个智能体,自动给那些人全部发一遍邮件,你就能把档期填满,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** And let's imagine all of a sudden you had six months of inventory available. I bet if you spooled up an agent and emailed all those folks back automatically, you'd fill up the docket, right?
**Lenny:** 嗯嗯。
**Lenny:** Mhm.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以任何人都能做这类事情。你以为你做不了,但除非你小到有足够的人手跟每一个潜在线索、每一个访问你网站的人、每一个跟你有过任何互动的人交流,否则你就能从AI中获益。
所以这基本上就是我们的历程。之后我们又做了很多其他细分领域的东西。我最后告诉你我们目前的状态——这可能信息量有点大了——我们现在到了一个可能做不了下一个的阶段了。因为当初我们刚开始用 Deli 的时候,当我模仿你用 Deli 的时候,即使是我,一开始每天也要花将近一个小时来训练它。因为当我们开始把它用在客服上的时候,它一开始会告诉人们错误的日期,好吧?我们可以聊聊为什么。
所以我必须去修复它,它会犯一些错误。当人们开始使用它的时候,我每天早上都要花一个小时打开 Deli,审查问题并回答。现在不需要了,它训练得很好了。但我们有太多智能体在运行、太多邮件要处理,Amelia 每周得花10到15个小时审查输出结果。这很累人,因为智能体整晚都在工作,周末也在工作,圣诞节也在工作。这是个大问题,对吧?
做协调者或者首席AI负责人这份工作,不适合懒人,因为智能体永远不睡觉,对吧?所以现在管理这20个智能体需要花费太多时间。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, anyone can do these sorts of things. You think you can't, but unless you're so small that you have sufficient humans to talk with every potential lead, every person that touches your website, every person that clicks with anything, you can benefit from AI.
So, that was kind of our journey, and then we've done a lot of other niche stuff. I'll tell you at the end that where we are today -- this is maybe almost too much learning -- is we're at the point where maybe we can't do one more. Because right now, when we did Deli in the beginning, when I copied you with Deli, even me, I spent almost an hour a day training it in the beginning. Because when we started to use it for support it had an initial -- it started telling people the wrong dates, okay? And we could talk about why.
So I had to fix it and it made some mistakes. And so when people started to use it, I had to spend an hour each morning firing up Deli, reviewing the issues and answering them. I don't have to do it anymore. It's well trained. But we have so many agents going and so many emails that Amelia has to spend, you know, 10 to 15 hours a week reviewing the outputs. And it's exhausting because agents work all night and they work weekends and they work on Christmas. It's a big issue, right?
This is not -- being the orchestrator or the chief AI person is not a good job for lazy people because the agents never sleep, right? So it is so much time now to manage these 20.
**Jason Lemkin:** 这一点很有意思。我们做不了——我不知道什么时候会做第21个。可能已经满了。对于初创公司的朋友们来说,这恰恰是你们应该更加努力的理由,因为今年所有人都在入场。所有人。而且这种趋势还会继续。但业务流程变革(business process change)对于企业软件来说仍然是个问题。归根结底就是业务流程变革。很多创始人在这个问题上犯了错。99%的销售人员根本不关心业务流程变革。在销售的世界里,他们只想拿到佣金。客户花多少钱买一个应用无所谓,只要价格合理。真正麻烦的是为了改变你做生意的方式而需要做的所有工作,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** This is just interesting. We can't I don't know when we're going to do the 21st. We may be full. And for folks that are startups, this is a reason to go harder because everyone was in market this year. Okay, everyone. And it's going to keep happening. But business process change remains an issue for business software. Business process change at the end of the day. And so many founders get this wrong. And 99% of sales folks, they don't care about business process change. In sales works, they just want to get their commission. Doesn't really matter what you pay for an app for a customer as long as it's fair. It's all the work to do to change the way you do your business, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以即使是我们,都已经到了超负荷的阶段了,对吧?所以要注意,不管你是初创公司,还是 Salesforce 或 HubSpot,也许得在未来12个月内把单子签了,因为这个窗口期可能会关闭。到时候人们会说:"听着,那是我见过的最酷的智能体。但我被之前五个搞得精疲力竭了。去年我不得不上线了五个。我真的没办法再往我的企业里引入哪怕一个应用了。"所以这将是一个逆风。虽然现在看起来一切都是顺风,对吧?一切都火得不行。但人们会因为太多智能体而筋疲力尽。
**Jason Lemkin:** And so we're even we're at the point where we're overloaded, right? And so just be aware if you're a startup or even Salesforce or HubSpot, maybe close those deals in the next 12 months because the window may close where people say, "Listen, that's the coolest agent I've ever seen. I'm exhausted from the last five. I had to do five last year. I just can't literally cannot bring one more app into my enterprise." And so that's going to be a headwind that today everything seems like it has tailwinds, right? Everything's on fire. But people are going to get exhausted for having so many agents.
**Lenny:** 你刚才分享的内容里有太多值得学习的东西了。有一个我一定要问的问题——当人们听到这些,智能体在发邮件,智能体在跟你的客户交流。我收到大量糟糕透顶的邮件。
**Lenny:** There's so much to learn from in what you just shared. Something I definitely want to ask about as people hear this, agents sending off emails, agents talking to your clients. I get a ton of emails that are terrible.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yes.
**Lenny:** 你在让这些外呼邮件写得好、而不是制造噪音方面,学到了什么?你怎么让这些对话保持高质量?
**Lenny:** What have you learned about making these outbound emails good and not just noise? How do you make these conversations high quality?
**Jason Lemkin:** 这是一个非常非常非常好的问题。也许最重要的两个经验是——把你销售团队里最厉害的人、你最好的市场营销人员,拿他们的邮件文案作为AI的模板。人们犯的最严重的错误是——2024年所有人都说这些产品不好用。不好用有两个原因。第一,那时候还没有 Claude 4,对吧?Replit 不好用。Lovable 还不存在。Gamma 在2025年之前也不太行,对吧?大语言模型(LLM)到了一个临界点之后,才能在这些场景下真正发挥作用。这是一个门槛。
**Jason Lemkin:** It's a really really really good question. So the two maybe the two biggest learnings -- take your best person on your sales team, the best marketer you have, take their email copy and use that as a template for your AI. The terrible mistake people make, everyone in 2024 said these products didn't work. There were two reasons they didn't work. It was before Claude 4, right? Replit didn't work. Lovable didn't exist. Gamma didn't really work before 2025, right? The LLMs reached this point where they would work for these use cases. So that was one threshold.
**Jason Lemkin:** 另一个2024年发生的事情是,供应商们有点忽悠人,说什么只要把产品打开就行了,它会给你带来收入。不需要训练,不需要做任何事。我们来当这个神奇的AI天才搞定一切。事实不是这样的。真正有效的做法是——如果你想让一个智能体在GTM和销售方面成功,你得把你最优秀的人的成功案例拿出来,训练——我知道这个词听起来有点吓人,但其实不难。把那些文本上传上去,好吧?用它来训练智能体,然后让它去迭代和做AB测试(A/B test)。
**Jason Lemkin:** The other thing that happened in 2024 is the vendors kind of lied and said just turn the product on. It'll get you revenue. No need to train it, no need to do anything. We'll just do everything as this magic AI savant. It's not the way it works. What you do is an agent will be successful in go to market in sales today if you take what works for your best person, train -- I know this seems like a scary term, but it's not. Upload that text. Okay? Train the agent on it and let it iterate and AB test from that.
**Jason Lemkin:** 智能体做AB测试非常在行。它们很擅长创建变体。你让 Claude 或 ChatGPT 帮你写你最好的邮件的变体。"给我三个版本的变体。"效果都挺好的。智能体要做的就是拿你写过的最好的邮件,然后通过API处理一遍。我说得比实际情况简单了一些,但也没简单太多。所以训练它,然后给它一些数据源,数据源可以简单到就是 Salesforce。好吧?然后如果它有 Lenny 的任何数据,它就能提取出来,做一些轻度的个性化。
**Jason Lemkin:** Agents are really good at AB testing. They're really good at creating variants. You ask Claude or ChatGPT for a variant of your best email. Say, "Give me three versions of my best email." They'll be pretty good. That's all the agent has to do is take your best email you ever sent and stick it through an API. I'm making it sound simpler than it is, but not by too much. So train it and then give it some data sources and the data source could be as simple as Salesforce. Okay? And then if it has any data on Lenny, it can pull data and it can lightly personalize that email.
**Jason Lemkin:** 更好的是,很多这类产品会追踪你网站的所有访客,所以它们能看到发生了什么,它们还用其他API,这样就能进一步个性化你的邮件。最终的结果是AI写出来的邮件效果相当不错。好吧?如果你收到很差的邮件,那是一个差劲的供应商搞出来的训练不良的产品。你收到的邮件应该让你觉得:"这没有 Jason 在 Lenny 的播客上说的那么好,但确实还不错。"好吧,这就是今天AI能做到的水平。
**Jason Lemkin:** And even better, a lot of these products track all the visitors to your website, so they can see what's happened and they use other APIs and so they can personalize your emails more. And so what ends up happening is the emails that the AI write are pretty good. Okay? If you're getting terrible emails, it's a poorly trained product from a bad vendor. You should be getting emails when you get them and you're like, "This isn't as good as Jason said on Lenny's podcast, but it's pretty good." Okay, that's what AI can do today.
**Jason Lemkin:** 而关键在于,如果一个人类根本就没在做这件事,或者你那些一般般的人写得更差,那AI就赢了。我跟你说,我在上一家创业公司被 Adobe 收购时学到的第一课。Sam Blonde 是我们的一位销售负责人,后来成了 Brex 等公司的CRO(首席营收官)。我们从 Adobe 那里继承了一批销售代表,我们没主动要的。Sam 看了之后说:"我的天,我以前从来没看过每个人的邮件。这是我见过的最差的邮件。"AI能比那个强。所以你只要拿你最好的人的邮件去训练,效果就会相当不错。你只是还没见过训练良好的智能体。
**Jason Lemkin:** And the magic is if a human isn't even doing that or if your mediocre humans are worse. And I'll tell you, one of the first lessons I learned when my last startup was acquired by Adobe. Sam Blonde was one of our sales leaders. Then he became CRO of Brex and others. And we inherited a bunch of reps from Adobe. We didn't ask for them. And he's like, "My god, I never read everyone's emails before. These are the worst emails that I've ever read." So the AI can do better than that. And so you just train it on your best and it'll be pretty good. And so you just haven't seen a well-trained agent.
**Jason Lemkin:** 然后大家常问的另一个问题是:"好的 Jason,那封邮件确实还不错。没你在台上说得那么好,但还不错。"但你会告诉对方这是AI发的吗,还是隐藏起来?我们从发送了几十万封邮件中学到的经验是——无所谓。我们处在一个人们不太在乎的时代,只要邮件有价值,而且他们知道会立刻得到回复。
**Jason Lemkin:** And then another question folks ask is, "Okay, Jason, that email was pretty good. It wasn't as great as you said on stage, but it was pretty good." But do you tell people it's an AI or do you hide it? And what we learned from sending hundreds of thousands is it doesn't matter. We're in an age where people don't really care as long as the email adds value and they know they're going to get an instant response.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我们两种都试过。我们试过说"嗨,这是数字版 Amelia"或"数字版 Jason"。我们也试过伪装成真人。我们发现现在我们就直接发。直接发,没人在乎。偶尔会有创始人回复说:"哈哈,我看得出这是AI写的,但写得还不错。能安排个会吗?"这不就说明一切了吗?所以我们在自己给自己设障碍,把一些顾虑当成不干活的借口。
**Jason Lemkin:** We've tried both. We've tried to say, "Hey, it's digital Amelia or digital Jason." We've tried to fake it. And what we've learned is now we just send it. We just send it and no one cares. And sometimes we'll get especially founders will get an email back. They'll be like, "Haha, I can tell this is AI but it's pretty good. Can I do a meeting?" That kind of says it all, doesn't it? So, we're worrying, we're creating issues as excuses to not do the work.
**Lenny:** 你说的人类销售人员的邮件本来就不怎么样这一点,真的很有说服力。因为我们看到的只是AI发的那些还行的邮件,然后在说不太好,但你说的是——你真正去看人类写的邮件的话,其实也没好多少。
**Lenny:** Your point about how human sales people's emails are not great already is really powerful because all we're looking at is these okay emails from AI and you're saying okay but humans, they're not actually that much better if you actually look at them.
**Jason Lemkin:** 天哪,真的没好多少。听着,你收到过的最好的外呼邮件——比如,我知道你做了很多投资,很多都是别人主动找上你的。他们想让 Lenny 参与。对吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** My god, they're not. Listen, the best outbound emails you've ever gotten -- like for example, I know you've done a bunch of investments, a lot of them are inbound to you. They want Lenny involved. Right.
**Lenny:** 没错。
**Lenny:** That's right.
**Jason Lemkin:** 有一些好到你不敢相信。对吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** Some of them are just so good you can't believe it. Right.
**Lenny:** 少数几个。
**Lenny:** A few.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对。有多少是那样的?但大多数不是。对吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. How many are that? But a lot of them aren't. Right.
**Lenny:** 对。
**Lenny:** Right.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以最好的创始人、最好的销售高管、最好的SDR,会花两个小时去研究一封邮件。好的,IBM 那边到底应该联系谁?IBM 做了什么?他们的竞争对手里到底谁在用?具体的投资回报率是多少?他们会给你讲一个完美的故事。像是"这是你的竞争对手,这是他们怎么用的,这是他们什么时候买的,这是ROI,这是案例研究。"这是一封绝佳的邮件,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** So like the best founders and the best sales execs and the best SDRs will spend two hours researching an email. Okay. Who exactly at IBM should I reach out to? What did IBM? Who else exactly is a competitor that's using them? Exactly what was the ROI? They'll give you a perfect story. Like you get the world's best story. Here's your competitor. Here's how they use it. Here's exactly when they bought. Here's the ROI. Here's the case study. That's a great email, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 有多少21岁的SDR会这么做?不会的。他们用的是自动化工具,不管是 Outreach、Gong、SalesLoft 还是 Mixmax,或者基于AI的工具,但他们不做任何功课。这样的效果不会太好。所以这就是为什么人们有点搞混了。AI GTM"足够好"的标准并没有我们想象的那么高。它就是尽可能地复制你最优秀的人的水准。它能打败你团队里中等水平的人,能打败那些对你产品一无所知的人。
**Jason Lemkin:** How many 21-year-old SDRs do that? No, they use an automation tool whether it's Outreach or Gong or SalesLoft or Mixmax or an AI based, but they do no work. It's not going to be that great. So, that's why people get a little confused. The bar for good enough for AI GTM is not as high as we think. It's just like a facsimile of your best person reproduced as best we can. It's going to beat your midpack person. It's going to beat the person that literally knows nothing about your product.
**Lenny:** 这是不是人类继续发光发热的机会——就是那种水平高得多的邮件?这在我们采访 Jen Abel 那期也聊到过。我问她用什么工具,她说什么都不用。我就手工写,纯手工打造。而且效果特别好,因为所有人都在发AI邮件。这是不是GTM销售人员仍然能存在的价值所在——那种好得多的邮件?还是说这个也……
**Lenny:** Is this an opportunity for humans to continue to thrive, this layer of much better emails? This came up when we had Jen Abel on the podcast. I asked her like what tools do you use? She's like nothing. I just write it out artisanally. And it works really well because everyone's sending AI emails. Is this just like where go to market sales people still can exist, that much better email, or is that also--
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果你有一支高绩效的人类团队在追逐高客单价的大客户——这是经典打法——Lenny、我和 Jen 在一间会议室里,我们在白板上列出最想赞助 Lenny 播客的50家公司。只有50家。我们写下 Notion、Linear、Ramp。就50家。我们都在努力卖这个新的赞助方案,50万美元两年,要就要不要拉倒。然后我们分工:Lenny 擅长这些,Jason 擅长那些,Jen 擅长另外一些,每人分15到17家。
**Jason Lemkin:** For if you have a high performing human team hunting high dollar value logos -- and this is classic stuff -- Lenny and I and Jen are in a conference room, we put a whiteboard of the 50 best folks that we want to sponsor Lenny's podcast. There's only 50. Okay. And we write Notion and we write Linear and we write Ramp. There's only 50. And we're all trying to sell them these new sponsorships. They're half a million bucks for two years. Take it or leave it. Okay. And we divide them up and we say Lenny's best at this, Jason's best, Jen's best, and we each take 15 or 17.
**Lenny:** 兄弟,这种情况根本不需要AI吧?
**Lenny:** Dude, no need for AI there, is there?
**Jason Lemkin:** 同意。今天不需要AI。
**Jason Lemkin:** Agreed. No need for AI today.
**Lenny:** 因为投资回报率太高了。
**Lenny:** Because the ROI is really high.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对。而且我们三个都很厉害,我们知道三个人各有不同。一定能大获成功,不需要任何——也许我们中有人会把写好的邮件丢进 Claude 快速润色一下让它更好,对吧?或者我会用它来做更多调研。比如我先写出一封绝佳的邮件,然后说:"Claude,怎么能写得更好?帮我查一下。"它确实会更好。这是一种AI增强(AI boost),Jen 应该也这么做。我很喜欢 Jen,但她至少应该让AI帮她提升一下。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. And we're great and we know that the three of us are different. The three of us are really different. It's going to crush and we don't need any -- maybe one of us will take our emails and run it through Claude real quick just to make it better, right? Or what I do is I do it for more research. Like I write the world's best email and then I say, "Claude, how could I make this better? Do a little research." It will still be better. So that's an AI boost Jen should be doing. I love Jen, but she should at least be making it better.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但对于我们那45、50个最好的目标客户,我们不需要AI。但如果变成5000个呢?她那套方法就行不通了。所以没错,我们聊的这些更适合较高数量级的销售。但随着每个人的规模增长,都会变成高数量级。规模一大,量就上来了,对吧?所以是的,如果你很小,只有三个潜在客户,刚进 Y Combinator,也许你不需要这些工具,但我们会比想象中更快地走出那个阶段。
**Jason Lemkin:** But for our 45, 50 best ones, we don't need it. What if it's 5,000? Her approach just doesn't work. So yes, a lot of the stuff we're talking about lends itself to higher volume sales. But as everyone gets bigger, it's all higher volume. There's just so much volume as you scale, right? So, yes, if you're tiny and you have three prospects and you're just getting into Y Combinator, maybe you don't need these tools, but we graduate out of that more quickly.
**Jason Lemkin:** Jen 那种精雕细琢的方式,我觉得在高客单价的企业级销售中是管用的。但除此之外,我就不确定了。你就是触达不了足够多的人。人类触达不了那么多人,而且人类不想做那些活。他们不想去处理那些一般般的线索。他们真的不想。
**Jason Lemkin:** And the bespoke thing for Jen, I think, will work for high dollar value enterprise, but outside of that, I don't know, man. You just can't touch enough people. Humans can't touch enough people, and humans don't want to do the work. They don't want to talk to the mediocre leads. They literally don't.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我跟你说,我在伦敦的时候,想买一个1万美元的产品。好吧?当时我在伦敦,我们在办 SaaStr 活动。我一点时间都没有,对吧?而且 Lenny,时差把我搞蒙了,我都不知道湾区现在几点。所以我就在年底的时候给这个销售代表发了封邮件,说:把合同发给我就行,我想买,但我有两个问题。我告诉他了这两个问题,而且跟价格无关。
**Jason Lemkin:** I'll tell you, when I was in London, I wanted to buy a $10,000 product. Okay? And I'm literally in London and we're doing SaaStr. I don't have any time, right? And I get confused with the time zones, Lenny. I don't know if you do. I don't even know what time it is in the Bay Area. So, I just emailed this rep at the end of the year. I'm like, just send me the contract. I want to buy it, but I have two questions. I have two questions I want answered. I told him these two questions. And they weren't even about price.
**Jason Lemkin:** 他花了三天才回复我,而且把我转给了他团队的另一个人。因为1万块不值得他花时间,佣金不够多嘛,对吧?他把我转给了另一个人,那个人说:"你不跟我打电话的话我没法回答你的问题。"我说:"我在伦敦,在出差。"通常到这一步我就会放弃了,但我还是说:"你把这两个问题回答了,我就买你的产品,1万块。"他说:"我需要通电话。"你看,AI比这强。这不是 Jen 的白板战略。
**Jason Lemkin:** Took him three days to get back to me and he introduced me to someone else on his team. It wasn't worth his time. 10 grand wasn't enough because not enough commission for him, right? So, he introduced someone else to me and the other guy said, "I can't answer your questions unless you'll get on the phone." And I said, "I'm in London. I'm traveling." Ordinarily, I would have ended this, but I'm like, "If you answer my two questions, I will buy your product for 10K." He's like, "I need to get on the phone." Like, AI is better than that. This is not Jen's whiteboards thing.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以AI至少能填补这些空白——即使 Jen 的流程是对的,AI也能补上所有的缺口。那些我们没跟进的线索呢?我们拿到了70%的回复率,对吧?我的意思是,Jen 这样的人是凤毛麟角。真的不多。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, it will at least fill the -- even if Jen's process is right, AI can fill all the gaps. What about all the leads we didn't follow up with and we got a 70% response rate, right? I mean, the Jens are diamond in the rough and whatever the expression. There's not that many of them. There's not that many of them.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以我很喜欢她,也很认同她说的话,99%我都同意。但这里有一个相关的要点。我们大多数人没有最火的品牌,也没有最顶级的CRO来带队。所以我们最终只能将就着用不是最好的销售团队。这就是现实。99%的顶级销售代表只想在最热门的品牌工作。你的光环稍微暗一点,他们就不想干了。他们马上就想跳到下一个。原因很多。所以记住,99%的公司无法吸引到一支由 Jen 或比 Jen 更强的人组成的团队。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, I love her and I love what she says and I agree with 99% of it. But here's a related point. Most of us don't have the hottest brands and we don't have the most elite CRO running them. So we end up settling for not the best sales team. That's the truth. Most 99% of the best sales reps want to work just at the hottest brands. And the minute your star fades just a little bit, they don't want to work. They immediately want to jump to the next one. There's a lot of reasons why. So bear in mind 99% of the world cannot attract a team of Jens or better.
**Jason Lemkin:** 现实就是——即使是我也做不到。你可以,Lenny,你太优秀了。但即使很多人想去为你工作,如果你想招人,他们会说:嗯我很喜欢,但我要做什么?卖通讯赞助?不不不不,我想当 Lovable 的CRO。我喜欢 Lenny,但这真的能帮我实现目标吗?对吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** It's just practically -- even I can't. Even you could, Lenny, you're so great, but even a lot of folks that would want to go work for you, if you want to hire someone, they'd be like, well I love it, but what do I have to do? I've got to sell newsletter sponsorships? Like no no no no, I want to be CRO at Lovable. I love Lenny but is that really going to get me there? Right.
**Lenny:** 是的。
**Lenny:** Yeah.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以AI能打败那些人。但AI打不过企业级面对面销售。我完全不知道AI要怎么做面对面销售。得有比我聪明的人来回答这个问题。但你知道的,你有这么大的听众群体,Lenny,但我仍然认为你的大多数听众都在科技行业、做的是科技销售。科技是我们经济中最大的板块,而且还在增长,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** So AI can beat those. But AI can't beat the enterprise thing. I have no idea how AI is going to do in-person sales. Someone smarter than me is going to have to answer that. But you know, you have such a huge audience, Lenny, but I still think most of your folks are in tech and doing tech sales. Tech is the largest segment of our economy and growing, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以总的来说,这些工具在科技销售中是管用的。科技销售就是通过 Zoom、电话、邮件。我们确实应该多上门拜访,多做面对面交流。我收集到的所有数据都表明,如果你亲自去见客户,成交率会更高。但在科技行业,基本上就是在GTM中尽可能多地用自动化。
**Jason Lemkin:** So for the most part, these tools will work for tech sales. Tech sales is over the Zoom, over the phone, over email. We should knock on more doors. We should do more in person. All the data I've ever collected shows everything closes at a higher rate if you go in person. But in tech, it's basically as much automation as we can get away with in GTM.
**Lenny:** 我觉得可能有帮助的是,让我退后一步,总结一下你刚才讲的这些。以前你们有——我特别喜欢你之前分享的那个画面,你办公室里销售团队的工位——你有入站SDR,有外呼SDR,可能还有一个客服人员——
**Lenny:** What I think might be helpful is let me zoom out for a second and describe what you've gone through here. So you used to have -- I love this visual you had of the desks of the sales folks in your office -- where you had inbound SDRs, you had outbound SDRs, maybe a support person--
**Jason Lemkin:** 还有三四个AE(客户经理,Account Executive)。
**Jason Lemkin:** And three or four AEs, account executives.
**Lenny:** 好的。三四个AE负责接收这些线索然后成交。那现在,不再是人类了,而是每个岗位都有一个智能体在做。对。你有外呼智能体在发邮件寻找潜在线索。有入站智能体在跟感兴趣的人沟通,让他们更感兴趣。那有没有一个AE智能体,还是说那个——
**Lenny:** Okay. Three or four AEs who kind of take these leads and then close the deal. And so now, instead of humans, there's an agent doing each of these jobs. Yes. You have this outbound agent that's just sending emails trying to find potential leads. An inbound agent that's talking to people that are interested, trying to get them more excited. And then is there an AE agent or I forget what that--
**Jason Lemkin:** 我们有——这个我还在摸索。我们有一个全职AE加上——
**Jason Lemkin:** We have -- that's what I'm still learning. We have one full-time AE plus--
**Lenny:** Amelia 20%的时间,所以是1.2个人在做之前五六个AE做的工作。
**Lenny:** 20% of Amelia's time, so it's 1.2 doing what five or six AEs did.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我明白了。
**Jason Lemkin:** I see.
**Lenny:** 而且没有SDR/BDR了。
**Lenny:** And no SDR/BDRs.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对。所以基本上所有漏斗顶部(top of funnel)的工作都是AI在做。对。
**Jason Lemkin:** Got it. So basically all the top of funnel is AI. Yes.
**Lenny:** 然后有一个人类负责接收所有优质线索,完成成交、谈价格之类的。
**Lenny:** And there's one human now that takes all the great stuff and just closes the deals, negotiates pricing, things like that.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对。也许更准确地说是1.2个人。但对,就算1.2吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. Maybe 1.2 just to say it. But yeah, let's call it 1.2.
**Lenny:** 是的。这也正是我想深入聊的方向。Amelia——这个角色感觉非常关键。不一定需要全职,但得有人持续关注这些智能体(agent),盯着邮件,确保输出质量,确保它们在正常运行。聊聊这个环节对整个运营体系到底有多重要吧。
**Lenny:** Yeah. So that's where I wanted to go. Amelia -- that feels really important. Just somebody, not necessarily full-time, but just staying on top of these agents, watching the emails, making sure quality is high, making sure they're running correctly. Talk about just like how important that part is to this whole operation.
**Jason Lemkin:** 至关重要。至关重要。你知道,大家在 LinkedIn 上发帖说想招 GTM 工程师(GTM engineer)。我觉得这个岗位今天还不存在。看到这类招聘我会担心。我认为在当下——当然了,如果我们 18 个月后再聊,这些内容可能得全部更新,因为世界变化太快了,对吧?我觉得今天,100 个案例里有 95 个得从内部提拔。这个人得是个技术极客(nerd),得喜欢营销和销售,还得有数据思维。
**Jason Lemkin:** It's critical. It's critical. And, you know, people are posting on LinkedIn that they want to hire these GTM engineers. I don't think that role exists today. I worry when I see these roles. I think today, and listen, if we get together in 18 months, we'll update this because the world's changing so fast, right? I think today 95 out of 100 you've got to promote someone internally. It's got to be a nerd, someone that likes marketing and sales and is quant.
**Jason Lemkin:** 很多做 B2C 的人其实很擅长这些,因为在 B2C 领域,销售和营销本质上是同一件事。但这个人必须是个极客,愿意每天花几个小时坐在数据面前,做数据路由、管理这些智能体。他们可能来自产品团队、可能来自市场团队、也可能来自收入运营(RevOps),但一定要够极客。从传统销售岗位出来的概率基本为零。
**Jason Lemkin:** You know, a lot of B2C people are frankly good at this stuff because in B2C sales and marketing are kind of the same thing, you know, but someone that's a nerd that loves to sit in front of data for a couple hours a day and route data and manage these agents. They come out of product, they could come out of marketing, but maybe they could come out of RevOps, but they better be nerdy. Odds they come out of regular sales approach zero.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我建议在团队里找一个主动举手说"我已经在做了,我已经在 Replit 上写了 10 个应用,我喜欢 Vercel,我自己也试过这些智能体了,能不能让我来帮你管理?"的人。然后让这个人成为你的"首席编排官"(Chief Orchestration Officer)。但这确实是一个全新的技能体系。最终,找到一个愿意每天花一两个小时来管理这些智能体的人,就是我们需要攻克的新前沿。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, I would find someone on my team that raises their hand and says, "I've already done this. I've already written 10 apps in Replit and I love Vercel and I did this and I've already tried these ones on my own. Can I please manage these for you?" And then have them be your chief orchestration officer. But it is a new skill set. It really is. And ultimately finding someone that's going to spend an hour or two a day to manage these agents is the new frontier for us to figure out.
**Jason Lemkin:** 这些智能体——它们虽然自主运行,但并不意味着不需要持续的监督和迭代。这一点让人困惑。如果你买了某个产品就撒手不管,投资回报率(ROI)一定是零。这个回答可能有点长,但这真的至关重要。很遗憾,我觉得目前你只能在内部培养这种人才。就连 Vercel 也基本上是内部培养的,对吧?我们不都是 Vercel,但我确实没见到外部招聘成功的案例。所有人都在招这个岗位,但我们需要的是有实战经验的人,而现在还没有这样的老兵。回到我们之前聊的,如果你就是这样的人,明年你会变得极其抢手。工作机会多到你都不知道该怎么选,根本挡不住。
**Jason Lemkin:** They do not -- they operate autonomously but not without constant oversight and iteration. That's the confusing part. And if you just buy one of these products and disappear, you will have zero ROI. So maybe too long of an answer, but that's critical. And I just think unfortunately you're going to have to grow this resource at home today. Even Vercel basically grew the resource in-house, right? We're not all Vercel, but I just haven't seen it. Everyone's hiring for this job. But we need veterans. We don't have veterans yet, right? And going back early in the conversation, if that is you, you're going to be super employable next year. You're going to have so many job offers, you're not going to know what to do. You're going to have to beat them off.
**Lenny:** 那你怎么定义 Amelia 的角色?你会说她是 GTM 工程师(go-to-market engineer),还是另一种角色?
**Lenny:** And when you think of Amelia, would you describe her as a go to market engineer or is that a different role?
**Jason Lemkin:** 我会叫她"首席编排官"(Chief Orchestration Officer)。
**Jason Lemkin:** Chief orchestration officer, I would say.
**Lenny:** 好的,明白了。
**Lenny:** Yeah. Okay.
**Jason Lemkin:** 她对产品了如指掌。她知道所有的细节和怪癖,知道每个智能体怎么运作。这里有个复杂但很有意思的问题:如果你同时运行多个智能体,就得有人来划分它们各自负责的客户群(segment),否则彼此之间会产生大量冲突。你需要一个足够聪明的人——其实任何一个热爱数据的需求生成营销人员(demand gen marketer)都能胜任。但你必须对客户库进行分层分组,否则整个系统就会乱套。
**Jason Lemkin:** But she knows the products cold. She knows how all the quirks work, how all the agents work. And here's a complicated issue, but an interesting one. If you're running multiple agents, okay, someone's got to segment which of the base the agents are working with or they're going to have tons of conflict. You need someone smart enough -- and any really nerdy demand gen marketer that loves data can do this. But you've got to segment your base, otherwise it just becomes a mess.
**Jason Lemkin:** 大家在 X(Twitter)和网上讨论那种可以管理智能体的"主控智能体"(master agent),让智能体管理智能体。但我们还没到那一步。也许我对此很期待,但现在还没有实现。所以光是弄清楚怎么对客户库做分层——让你能同时做入站(inbound)、再定向(retargeting)、再营销(remarketing)、新客户拓展——这本身就很复杂。但大多数优秀的营销人员其实理解这些,他们本来就在做 A/B 测试(A/B testing)、做客户分群。这不是什么新鲜事,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** People on X and the internet talk about these master agents that can manage agents that can manage agents. We're not there yet. Okay, maybe like I'm excited for it but we're not there yet. So just even figuring out how to segment your base so you can do inbound, retargeting, remarketing, new marketing -- that is complicated, but most badass marketers kind of understand that. They're already doing AB testing, segmenting their bases. This is not new, is it?
**Lenny:** 确实不是。
**Lenny:** No.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对,没错。
**Jason Lemkin:** No. Yeah.
**Lenny:** 是的。
**Lenny:** It's yeah.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但如果你想零投入就把系统开起来跑,那必然失败。完全没有成功的可能。
**Jason Lemkin:** But turning it on with zero work is a fail. Like it's just no chance.
**Lenny:** 本期节目由 Datadog 赞助。Datadog 现已整合了 Eppo——业界领先的实验和功能标记平台(feature flagging platform)。全球顶级公司的产品经理都在使用 Datadog,这和他们的工程师每天依赖的是同一个平台,用来将产品洞察与产品问题——比如 bug、用户体验摩擦和业务影响——关联起来。一切从产品分析开始:PM 可以观看回放、分析漏斗、深入留存数据、探索增长指标。
**Lenny:** This episode is brought to you by Datadog, now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform. Product managers at the world's best companies use Datadog, the same platform their engineers rely on every day to connect product insights to product issues like bugs, UX friction, and business impact. It starts with product analytics, where PMs can watch replays, review funnels, dive into retention, and explore their growth metrics.
**Lenny:** 当其他工具止步于此时,Datadog 能更进一步,帮你真正诊断漏斗流失、bug 和用户体验摩擦的影响。一旦你知道该聚焦在哪里,实验就能证明什么有效。我在 Airbnb 工作时亲身体验过——我们的实验平台对于分析什么有效、哪里出了问题至关重要。而在 Airbnb 搭建实验平台的同一支团队,后来创建了 Eppo。
**Lenny:** Where other tools stop, Datadog goes even further. It helps you actually diagnose the impact of funnel drop offs and bugs and UX friction. Once you know where to focus, experiments prove what works. I saw this firsthand when I was at Airbnb, where our experimentation platform was critical for analyzing what worked and where things went wrong. And the same team that built experimentation at Airbnb built Eppo.
**Lenny:** Datadog 还能通过会话回放(session replay)让你超越数字本身。通过热力图(heat map)和滚动图(scroll map)观察用户的真实交互行为,从而真正理解他们的行为模式。而这一切都由功能标记(feature flag)驱动,与实时数据关联,让你能安全发布、精准定向、持续学习。Datadog 不仅仅是工程指标,它是优秀产品团队学得更快、修得更聪明、发布得更有信心的地方。前往 datadoghq.com/lenny 申请演示。地址是 datadoghq.com/lenny。
**Lenny:** Datadog then lets you go beyond the numbers with session replay. Watch exactly how users interact with heat maps and scroll maps to truly understand their behavior. And all of this is powered by feature flags that are tied to real-time data so that you can roll out safely, target precisely, and learn continuously. Datadog is more than engineering metrics. It's where great product teams learn faster, fix smarter, and ship with confidence. Request a demo at datadoghq.com/lenny. That's datadoghq.com/lenny.
**Lenny:** 我在回顾你刚才说的内容时做了一些笔记,基本上是针对每个职能给出的建议——如何在你所预见的未来中取得成功。我试着简单总结一下:你对销售人员的建议是——使用智能体,自己搭建一个,试着训练它,帮助它运行,让它跟你并肩工作,这样你就能理解这些工具,成为销售团队中那个——
**Lenny:** I'm looking back at some notes I took as you were talking of just like advice for each function almost of how to be successful in this future that you're seeing. So I try to summarize briefly. So your advice for sales people is use the agents, build one yourself, try to train it, help it run, run alongside you so that you understand these tools and be the person within the sales org that's--
**Jason Lemkin:** 这个建议是给管理层的。我是对领导者说的。我不确定普通的 SDR 或初级销售人员能拿到预算去买自己的智能体。如果能,那就大胆去做。问题在于,Lenny,这些目前能用的智能体都配有前置部署工程师(forward deployed engineer),需要培训,所以起步价都在 5 万美元以上。5 万、8 万——甚至更贵的也有——但入门级大概就是 5 万美元加上 2.5 万的 FDE 费用,也就是 7.5 万。就连 Clay 我记得起步价也在每年 10 万美元左右。
**Jason Lemkin:** For leadership. I advise that for leaders. I don't know that your average SDR or junior salesperson is going to get budget for their own agent. If they do, run with it. The problem, Lenny, is that all these agents that work today, they have forward deployed engineers, they have training, so they're all like 50 grand and up. 50 grand, 80 grand. I mean people pay more, don't get me wrong, but kind of the entry level point for these is sort of like 50 grand plus 25K for the FDE, or 75K. Even Clay I think starts at 100K a year.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以如果你是大型组织,这比雇一个人便宜,对吧?但目前还没有每月 99 美元的产品——虽然很多公司在尝试,我觉得迟早会出现。它们目前还不能很好地自动训练。所以我不确定初级员工能拿到 10 万美元的预算,对吧?这个建议是给 VP 级别的人的,那些担心自己会被淘汰的人——他们怕自己拿不到 Vercel 或 OpenAI 的职位。
**Jason Lemkin:** So if you're a bigger organization that's cheaper than a human, right? But there are no $99 a month products which -- a lot of them are trying and I think it's going to come. They don't auto-train yet particularly well. And so I don't know that junior folks are going to have access to 100K budget unfortunately, right? So that advice is for the VPs, the folks that are worried, a lot of them are worried that they're obsolete, right? That they're not going to get that role at Vercel or OpenAI.
**Jason Lemkin:** 接着说。给初级员工的建议是拥抱变化。无论你的公司在用什么工具,成为最会用那个智能体的人,你的效率就会自动提升。每天到了公司发现智能体已经帮你预约了四个电话会议,也许你只想打两个?那也拥抱它。因为这会让你的产出翻倍。
**Jason Lemkin:** So keep going. The advice for the junior folks is to embrace it. Whatever tools your organization is using, become the best person at working with that agent and you will automatically get more efficient. Is it annoying that you walk into work and the agent set up four calls for you and maybe you only wanted to do two of them? Embrace it. Embrace it because you'll be twice as productive. Right.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我昨天刚聊过这个。有家公司叫 Owner.com,我是他们的董事会成员,他们做的是餐饮行业的 AI 解决方案。他们的营收即将突破 1 亿美元,增长非常快。他们的销售团队有 100 个人。Kyle 说了,借助 AI,他的目标是每位销售代表创造 300 万到 500 万美元的收入。300 万到 500 万。说实话,如果是三四年前的同类公司,这个数字大概是 30 万到 50 万。效率提升了一个数量级。仍然是 100 个销售代表,明年想达成目标还需要更多人,但每人 300 万到 500 万。所以如果你能熟练使用这些工具,你就会变得更有价值。
**Jason Lemkin:** I was literally talking yesterday. There's a company I'm on the board of called Owner.com which is kind of like AI for restaurants. They're crossing 100 million in revenue, going really quickly. He's got 100 folks on the sales team. Kyle does. With AI, he's targeting 3 to 5 million in revenue per rep. 3 to 5 million. Honestly, if this was three or four years ago for a similar company, it would be 300 to 500K. That's an order of magnitude more efficiency. Still 100 reps, right? He's going to need more to hit the number for next year, but 3 to 5 million per rep. So, if you're that guy that can work with those tools, you become more valuable.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但如果你抗拒,如果你不愿意参加那些额外的会议,如果你抗拒——我们在 RevOps 里用了另一个工具,其实用了两个:一个叫 Momentum,一个叫 Attention。都很棒,功能也很类似。它做的事情是:人类的每一个行为都会被自动、实时地记录到你的 CRM(客户关系管理系统)里。每一次沟通,实时同步。以前也有工具做过一部分,但这次是真正的全覆盖。
**Jason Lemkin:** But if you fight it, if you don't want to do that extra meeting, if you fight it -- there's a tool, another tool we use for RevOps. There's two we use. One's called Momentum, one's called Attention. They're both great. They're very similar. And what it does is every single thing a human does is automatically tracked in your CRM instantly. Every communication, real time. There have been tools that have done some of this before, but literally everything.
**Jason Lemkin:** 当我们上线这个系统的时候——我认识的几个人那里也出现了同样的情况——团队里有个人当天就辞职了。我们刚上线 AI RevOps 那天他就走了。你知道为什么吗?因为他已经 30 天什么都没干了。
**Jason Lemkin:** And when we rolled it out, and it happened with a few other folks I know, one of the folks on that old team quit that day. Quit the day we rolled out the AI RevOps. You know why? He hadn't done anything in 30 days.
**Lenny:** 露馅了。
**Lenny:** The gig was up.
**Jason Lemkin:** 他每天都来参加我们的站会(standup),说"对,我在做外呼,我在推进跟 Vercel 的那笔单子",结果什么也没成交。然后我们说"哦,我们要上这个系统——"他当天就辞职了。我想说的是,他没有主动拥抱这些变化,对吧?拥抱它吧。现在你的工作内容会完全透明。Granola 就是一个很好的例子。AI 将会追踪你做的每一件事。如果你想抗拒,想跟未来对着干——祝你好运。但如果你拥抱它,你就会远远超越那些不愿拥抱变化的同事。
**Jason Lemkin:** Every day he would show up to our standup and he said, "Yeah, I'm doing outbound and I'm really working on that deal with Vercel and nothing would close." And then we said, "Oh, we're—" and he quit that day. So my point is he didn't lean into it, right? Lean into it. Now you're going to have full total transparency on your day. You know, Granola is, you know, a side example for everything. But AI is going to track everything you do. Like if you want to fight it, you want to fight the future, good luck to you. But embrace it and you will leap ahead of your peers that aren't embracing this.
**Jason Lemkin:** 拥抱所有的透明度,拥抱所有的线索,拥抱 AI 给你带来的所有额外工作。因为你不可能用同样的工作量去成交 10 倍的业绩,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** Embrace all the transparency, all the leads, all the work it makes you do. Because you can't close 10 times as much doing the same amount of work, can you?
**Lenny:** 不可能。
**Lenny:** Nope.
**Jason Lemkin:** 有了 AI,我们的工作量反而更大了。我现在是我有史以来工作最辛苦的时候。即便有了这些智能体和它们产出的所有内容。Amelia 承担了很多,但即便是我自己也在拼命工作。不过工作本身变得更好了。但绝对不是更轻松了。是更辛苦了。智能体的产出效率太高,你必须跟上节奏。
**Jason Lemkin:** We do more work with AI. I'm working the hardest I've ever worked. That's with all these agents and all the output they create. Amelia does a lot of it, but even I am working the hardest. But it's better. But it's not less work. It's more work. The agents are so productive you have to keep up.
**Jason Lemkin:** 打断一下做个总结——给管理者的建议是:买一个智能体,亲自部署。不要让别人代劳。从训练、数据导入(ingestion)到编排(orchestration),全部自己来,这些术语就不会那么吓人了。给初级员工的建议是:做那个热爱这些工具的人,做第一个主动拥抱它们的人。不要抗拒。
**Jason Lemkin:** So sorry to interrupt — for the managers, buy an agent, deploy it yourself. Don't have someone else do it. Do everything from training to ingestion to orchestration, and those terms will be less scary to you. For the junior folks, be the guy, the gal, the person that loves these tools and that is the first person to embrace whatever it is. Don't fight it.
**Lenny:** 太棒了。好的。对于创业公司的创始人来说,我理解你的意思是——你要做那个前置部署工程师(forward deployed engineer),得有这样的人,就像一个驻场的销售工程师帮助客户。这本质上是一个与大公司竞争的机会——你真的在现场帮他们搭建。你提到的所有公司,没有一家是大公司,都是初创公司,这很有意思。
**Lenny:** Awesome. Okay. For founders in startups, what I'm hearing is be that forward deployed engineer, have that person, that sales engineer that's sitting there helping companies. This is basically an opportunity to compete with bigger players where you're actually there helping them set things up. Like all the companies you mentioned, none of them are big companies. They're all startups, which is really interesting.
**Jason Lemkin:** 确实如此。我要补充一点,我们现在跟 Salesforce 的合作方式,让我想起了 20 年前第一次用 Salesforce 的感觉。20 年前,老兄。当年我买 Salesforce 的时候,一切都是手把手服务的。我买了两个席位。我记得当时跟我的销售代表说:"别在我身上花时间了,你在 Salesforce 工作,我就买两个席位而已。"他说:"不不不,这就是我们的工作方式。我就是来帮你的。我会帮你把应用上架到 App Exchange,所有事情我们一起搞定。"后来这种服务消失了。但现在又回来了,对吧?Marc(Benioff)现在在 Salesforce 安排了 2000 人专门做这件事。
**Jason Lemkin:** It is true. I will say it is working with Salesforce the way we are. It's the way I haven't worked with Salesforce since it was the first product I bought. I mean, 20 years ago, dude. When I bought Salesforce 20 years ago, everything was hands-on. I bought two seats. I remember back in the day talking to my rep. I'm like, "Don't talk to me. You don't have time. You work at Salesforce. I'm buying two seats." He's like, "No, no, no. This is what we do. I'm here for you. I'm going to help you get your app on the App Exchange. We're going to do all that." And that went away. It's kind of back, right? And Mark's got 2,000 folks doing this at Salesforce now.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以我们有一个前置部署工程师。我甚至不确定从经济角度看这是否划算。也许两年后像你我这样的人就不会再配 FDE 了。但大公司正在摸索。不过没错,选一个愿意用 FDE 帮你成功的供应商,对吧?大家把这个词挂在嘴边,但说白了,就是有个人会确保你真正完成产品的培训和上手。是的,初创公司在这方面有一种内在动力,而一些老牌公司可能还在摸索阶段。
**Jason Lemkin:** So, we have a forward deployed engineer. I'm not even sure it makes economic sense. And maybe in two years someone like you or I would not get an FDE. But the big companies are figuring it out. But yes, pick a vendor that will make you a success with an FDE, right? And people throw this term out, but again, it's just someone that's going to make sure you get trained and onboarded with your product for real. But yeah, startups have a motivation to do this in a way that maybe some of the incumbents really are still figuring out, right?
**Lenny:** 这对初创公司来说是一个巨大的机会。这跟 Jen 给初创公司的建议非常吻合——先卖服务,直接帮客户干活、解决问题,不一定一开始就用软件。先把这个切入口做起来,然后逐渐发展成一个大型的软件合同。
**Lenny:** Which is a big opportunity for startups to actually do this. And this actually resonates very closely to what Jen suggested for startups, which is sell services initially — just do work for them, solve their problem not with software to get things started, to grow that into a massive contract with them that is software.
**Jason Lemkin:** 你说的是"落地再扩展"(land and expand)——先做个小单,然后慢慢做大。
**Jason Lemkin:** You mean land and expand — start with a smaller deal and grow it.
**Lenny:** 不完全是——我说的是有一个人坐在那里跟他们一起干活。本质上就是你描述的那种模式。不是说"我们有软件,你自己去试",而是"我们团队里会有人帮你搞定这件事"。也许一开始甚至没有软件能做所有这些事,但我们会安排人帮你做,然后软件会逐步接管越来越多的工作。
**Lenny:** Start — no, like a person sitting there doing this work with them. Essentially what you're describing. Don't just say "we have software, go try using it." It's like "we will have someone on our team helping you figure this out," and maybe there's not even software yet to do all these things, but we'll have them do it for you and then the software will take on more and more of that work over time.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我觉得这一直都是很好的建议,初创公司一直擅长这个。早期的时候,CEO 亲自做客户支持、亲自帮客户上手。我觉得今天不同的是——如果智能体产品不经过培训和上手引导,它一定会失败。一定会。它永远不会生效。
**Jason Lemkin:** I think that's always been great advice and startups have always been great at this. Like in the early days, the CEO does it — is doing support and co-onboarding you. I think what's different today is the agent will fail without training and onboarding this product. It will fail. Like it will never work.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以如果你想赢,这就变成了一种必须。你需要——这个词已经被用滥了——但你需要一个由人组成的团队。我们可以叫他们前置部署工程师,他们的唯一任务就是 100% 确保智能体上线时效果出色。这就是创始人的工作——确保产品上线时是出色的。而过去呢,即使是我做的最早一批电子签名服务之一,产品用起来非常简单,有些大客户还是花了两年时间才正式上线。在 AI 时代,这是不可接受的。
**Jason Lemkin:** So it becomes an imperative if you want to win. You need — this term has been bandied about too much — but you need a team of humans. We can call them forward deployed engineers that make 100% sure that when the agent is turned on, it's awesome. That's your job as a founder — make sure it's awesome. Versus in the old days, even when I built one of the first e-signature services that was so easy to use, we'd have some customers take them two years to go live. Big customers. That's just not okay in the age of AI.
**Lenny:** 没错。那这些前置部署工程师——和销售工程师(sales engineer)是同一个角色换了个名字,还是背景完全不同?
**Lenny:** Right. And these forward deployed engineers — is that just another name for sales engineer, or is that a different sort of background?
**Jason Lemkin:** 可以是,而且我觉得这些术语搞得人很混乱——什么编排啊、数据导入啊。Palantir 显然是目前最成功的上市 B2B 公司,对吧?也许 Databricks 和其他几家会在下一波 IPO 中超过它们。Palantir 的前置部署工程师概念跟我们说的类似,但他们做的是九位数的大单。我们大多数人做不到上亿美元的交易。
**Jason Lemkin:** It can be, and I think all this nomenclature is confusing, man — all this orchestration and ingestion. Palantir is obviously the single most successful public B2B company at the moment, right? Maybe Databricks and a few others will beat them in the next wave of IPOs. But their idea for forward deployed engineers is similar, but these are nine-figure deals. Most of us aren't doing hundred-million-dollar deals.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以说让 Gary Tan 带着一队人在客户办公室蹲六个月把软件跑起来——这个理念确实启发了这个概念。但实际上——好吧,可以是销售工程师或解决方案架构师(solution architect)。区别在于我们以前接触的 SE 更像是一种共享资源,经典配置是八个销售代表配一个 SE。八个代表一个小组,一个 SE 负责支持,你得抢 Jason 或 Lenny 的时间来帮这八个代表。现在完全倒过来了。FDE 的首要任务就是让客户成功。
**Jason Lemkin:** So the idea that you'll have Gary Tan and an army of folks out in the office for 6 months getting the software to work — that sort of inspires the idea. But it's really — sure, it could be a sales engineer or solution architect. But the difference is the SEs that a lot of us worked with in the days were resources, and often like there was also a classic resource of like eight sales reps to one SE. So the eight reps would — there'd be a pod and one SE would be responsible and you'd kind of have to fight to get Jason or Lenny's time to help the eight reps. This is inverted. The FDE's number one job is to make the customer a success.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我前几天刚看了一个案例——一个 AI 领域的公司,成交了一笔 300 万美元的订单。整个交易是 FDE 一个人搞定的。销售都没有参与。他们去了客户现场,启动部署、调优、全搞定了。销售唯一做的就是管理采购流程。这跟以前那种"回答客户几个问题"的模式完全不同,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** Okay. I was literally the other day doing a presentation — an AI leader that closed a $3 million deal. The FDE did it all themselves. Sales wasn't even involved in the deal. They went on site, they got the deployment going, they tuned it, everything. All sales did was manage it through the procurement process. Okay, that's pretty different than a guy answering some questions for the humans, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以它是客户成功(customer success)和 SE 的结合体,但说白了——坦白讲,就是一个经典的顾问,确保产品上线第一天就跑起来。区别就在于——上线时,它能用。上线时,它就能用。这就是核心。这是一个好听的名字,代表你团队里有一帮人确保 AI 智能体上线时真的能跑,让成功率从 2024 年的 5% 变成 100%。
**Jason Lemkin:** So it is a combination of customer success and SE or whatever, but it is really — I mean, frankly, it's just being a classic consultant that gets the product done on day one. That's the difference — when you go live, it works. When you go live, it works. That's what it is. And it's a fancy name for a bunch of folks on your team that when it goes live, the AI agent actually works. So you have a 100% success rate instead of like the 5% rate of 2024.
**Jason Lemkin:** 这些人确实需要有技术背景。是否一定要是工程师,不一定。我最喜欢的 FDE 类型是那种技术还行但不是顶尖工程师、却对产品充满热爱的人。他们可能不太想写代码了,但他们写过代码,而且就是热爱你的产品。我觉得完全没有产品感觉的人做不了这个,但不同背景的人都可以——关键是必须对产品了如指掌。
**Jason Lemkin:** So those people, they do need to be technical. I don't know if they need to be engineers. It can really vary. I love it when they're kind of like mediocre engineers that are in love with the product. That's my favorite type of FDE. Like they don't really want to code much anymore, but they did code and they just love your product. I don't think it can be someone with no product chops, but different folks can work — they've got to know the product cold.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对,初创公司——这个概念虽然被说烂了——你需要四个人,他们的唯一职责就是确保你的智能体产品上线时能用。这就是你需要的。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah, startups — I mean, the term is thrown around — you need four folks that will just make sure that on go-live the product works. Your agentic product works. That's what you need.
**Lenny:** 我觉得在结束这段对话之前,做一个梳理可能会很有价值——列出哪些事情正在发生变化,在未来的销售和 GTM(go-to-market)领域会有所不同。还有哪些事情是不会变的?
**Lenny:** I think what might be useful to close out this conversation is to kind of go through what are the things that are changing — like maybe a handful of things that are changed that are now going to be different in the world of sales and go-to-market. And what are a few things that are just going to stay the same?
**Jason Lemkin:** 好,我们过一遍。第一个显然是客户支持(support),这是最先被改变的。AI 已经永久性地改变了客户支持。无论你看哪家供应商,50% 到 80% 的客户支持已经由 AI 完成了。我们不总是把客户支持看作 GTM 的一部分,但它确实是——它是客户旅程的起点,对整个客户旅程至关重要。所以如果你还持怀疑态度,去看看——客户支持已经被永久改变了。这趟车已经开走了。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah, let's go through it. Obviously, support is the first one to have changed. It's obviously permanently changed with AI, right? Whatever vendor you look at, 50 to 80% of support is done by AI. And we don't always think about support as GTM, but it is — it's the start of a customer journey. It's very important to the customer journey. So if you're skeptical, go look at — support has changed permanently. That train's left the station.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但实事求是地说,在我们录这期节目的时候,销售领域还没有发生太大变化。我觉得我们讨论的这些是最前沿的探索。我确实认为,那种经典的、SDR 自己通过工具跑节奏化营销(cadence-based campaign)的模式,12 个月内大概率会消亡。没有理由 AI 不能做得比这个角色更好。经典的入站线索筛选(qualifying inbound leads)——对客户来说体验很差——12 个月内同样大概率会消亡。至于其他方面——我们走着看。
**Jason Lemkin:** Really, as we record this, not much has changed in sales. I mean, I do think the stuff we've talked about is the bleeding edge. I do think the classic cadence-based SDR running campaigns through a tool him or herself will be mostly extinct within 12 months. There is no reason AI can't do a better job than that role. The classic qualifying inbound leads, which is a crappy experience for customers, should be similarly mostly extinct in 12 months. The rest — we're going to wait and see.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我认为我们已经知道的是,对于销售代表来说——所有公司都希望在未来 12 个月内变得更高效。背后有很多原因。低端是成本和盈利压力,高端是企业文化——我们就是不想养 200 个销售。Vercel 也好、Replit 也好——如果每个代表能做到 300 万到 500 万的产出,那跟 30 万到 50 万完全是两个世界。
**Jason Lemkin:** I think what we do know for reps, for sales reps — everyone wants to be even more efficient in the next 12 months. There's a lot of reasons people want to be. At the bottom end, it's cost, it's profitability pressures. At the high end, it's cultural. We just don't want 200 reps running around. Vercel or Replit — everyone at just the company, $3 to $5 million per rep is a lot different than $300,000 to $500,000.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以作为一个销售代表你必须做出调整。我们说了,每家 AI 领头公司都招不够人。但你必须适应——在 AI 的帮助下,实现几何级数甚至指数级的产出提升。所以你必须真正拥抱这些工具。很多老派的 GTM 领导者会说"AI 不会伤害销售代表,只会给他们超能力"。对于最优秀的人,确实如此。但平庸的人只会变得更平庸,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** So you have to adjust as a rep. There's still — every AI leader can't hire enough reps like we talked about. But you're going to have to adjust to being geometrically, if not exponentially, more productive with help from AI. So you have to embrace these tools for real. And everyone — a lot of folks, a lot of old-school GTM leaders are like, "AI isn't going to hurt sales reps. It's just going to give them superpowers." The best ones, yes. The mediocre are just going to be more mediocre, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以我认为客户经理(AE)这个角色——我们永远需要销售人员,但光会做人已经不够了。你知道怎么识别一个平庸的销售人员吗,Lenny?
**Jason Lemkin:** So I think the AE — we will always have salespeople, but being a people person is not enough anymore. You know how you can tell a mediocre salesperson, Lenny?
**Lenny:** 怎么识别?
**Lenny:** How?
**Jason Lemkin:** 你问他擅长什么。"我特别会处理人际关系,Lenny。你知道我有多厉害吗?我跟我最好的 10 个客户都在短信聊。我是个'会来事儿的人'。"
**Jason Lemkin:** You ask them what they're really good at. "I'm a people person, Lenny. You know how good I am, Lenny? I'm on text with 10 of my best customers. I'm a people person."
**Jason Lemkin:** 你问他产品面临的最棘手的技术异议是什么,他答不上来,但他很会做人。这就像高尔夫 3.0——光靠关系已经不够了。纯粹靠"会来事儿"在销售领域正在被淘汰。
**Jason Lemkin:** What are the toughest technical objections you have at your product? They don't know, but they're a people person. You know, this is like golf 3.0. It's just not enough. It's insufficient. So people people are becoming obsolete in sales.
**Jason Lemkin:** 外勤销售(field sales)——AI 会怎么影响这个领域,我完全不知道。企业级客户的领导者比以往任何时候都在招更多的外勤销售。Salesforce 的招聘规模也是史上最大。上门拜访这种方式依然有效。所以我不知道答案。但那些坐在办公室里的和在家远程办公的销售——AI 会尽可能多地接管你的工作,或者让你变得尽可能好,而你必须拥抱它。所以从客户支持到上门拜访,AI 的影响程度大概是从 80% 到 0% 不等。
**Jason Lemkin:** Field sales — no idea how AI is going to impact that if you're out in the field. I mean, the enterprise leaders are hiring more field sales people than ever. Salesforce is hiring more than ever. And knocking on doors still works, man. So don't know the answers there. But the office worker and the work-from-home worker — AI is going to take as much of your job or make you as much better as it can, and you got to embrace it. So that's — I would say from support to knocking on doors, you know, we're going to go from 80% to 0%.
**Lenny:** 电话销售呢?
**Lenny:** What about phone calls?
**Jason Lemkin:** 这是个好问题,我们确实应该聊聊。显然,自动拨号电话(robocall)和相关法规问题是存在的。当然很多初创公司已经在打擦边球了。
**Jason Lemkin:** You know, it's a great question and we should have hit it. Obviously, there are plenty of robocall and regulatory issues around it. Certainly a lot of startups are breaking the rules anyway.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我这么说吧。电话和短信(SMS)都有限制,能自动化的短信量是有上限的,对吧?很多传统行业的人甚至不看邮件——他们在车间干活呢。所以这些都是悬而未决的问题。大家在打擦边球。OpenAI 现在还在打擦边球呢,对吧?现在是在做 Disney 内容授权,以前可是直接"借用"的。我们拭目以待。
**Jason Lemkin:** I would say this. Listen, there are phone calls and there's even SMS. There's limits to how much SMS you can automate, right? A lot of old-school businesses don't even check emails, right? I mean, you're working on the shop floor. So those are unanswered questions. People are breaking the rules. OpenAI still breaks the rules, right? Now it's licensing Disney content. It used to just borrow Disney content. We will see.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以我不知道答案。我觉得在欧洲推进速度肯定比美国慢得多,但初创公司会不断试探边界。他们会在 AI 电话、AI 辅助通话上试探极限——比如人类在线上但 AI 做所有事情,也许这是合法的?或者获取比以往更多的短信授权许可。如果你觉得传统的自动拨号和短信法规限制能阻止初创公司在 AI 时代打擦边球——我对此持怀疑态度。但这确实是个好问题,执行起来更难。
**Jason Lemkin:** So I don't know the answers to that. I think in Europe it'll certainly be much slower than in the US, but startups are going to push the limits. They're going to push the limits on what we can do with AI calls, AI enhanced — whether a human's kind of on the line but AI is doing all the work. Maybe that's legal, right? Getting more consent for SMS than we typically get. So to think that the typical barriers to robocalling and SMS is going to — that startups aren't going to bend the rules in the age of AI — I'm dubious. But it's a good question. It's harder to do.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我再补充一点——这也是对以上所有内容的一个有力反驳,我也很想听听 Jen 的想法——如果你跟你会投资的初创公司聊聊,Lenny,你会发现擅长外呼电话的公司比你想象的少得多。Ripling 的几位收入负责人在 SaaStr 做过演讲。他们的前 CRO 曾在我的团队工作过,还有其他人。他们很晚才发展冷呼叫(cold calling)能力,因为当年我们从来不做这个——那个 CRO 当时在我的团队。
**Jason Lemkin:** The one thing I will add — and it's a good objection to all of this, and I'd love to get Jen's thoughts too — but if you talk to the startups you'd invest in, Lenny, fewer of them are good at outbound phone calls than you'd think, right? We had multiple of the heads of revenue at Ripling speak at SaaStr. The old CRO worked on my team and others. They were late to develop cold calling because we never did it back then — the CRO was on my team.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以你得引入一个在 Brex 跟 Sam Blond 合作过、有这方面经验的人。拿起电话直接成交,这是一门真正的艺术,是一项专业技能。如果这恰好是你的专长,而 AI 又帮不上忙,那就这样吧。但我不认为对大多数科技公司的销售来说,冷呼叫有我们以为的那么有效。我觉得你我合作的大多数初创公司,以及听这档播客的大多数人,都不是靠人工冷呼叫成交大部分收入的。这是一门管用的手艺,但你得非常擅长才行。
**Jason Lemkin:** So we had to — you had to bring in someone that had worked with Sam Blond at Brex who had done it. It is a real art to pick up the phone and close business. It is a specialized skill. And so if that's your specialized skill and there's no way for AI to benefit, so be it. But I don't think for most tech calls that is as impactful as we pretend it is. I don't think most of the startups you and I work with and most of the folks listening to this do not close the majority of their revenue with cold human cold calls. It is a craft that works, but man, you got to be good at it.
**Lenny:** 你在某个地方说过一句话,大意是——如果你能在短信上成交,AI 也能成交。
**Lenny:** You have this line somewhere that if you can close on a text message, AI can close it.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。我说得有点夸张——但人们说他们跟客户关系很深,我觉得其实比他们想象的要浅。这就是原因——人们跟客户的关系没有他们以为的那么强。如果在短信上成交一笔生意真的那么容易,而我们已经做了几十万次验证也发现了——客户并不介意对方是 AI。如果是一个好的 AI,为什么它不能在短信上成交呢?对吧?AI 也可以很会"做人"。如果你不信我,去试试 Lennybot。网址是什么来着?Lennybot.com?
**Jason Lemkin:** Yes, it is. I'm being facetious in the sense that — people say that — I think they have weaker relationships with customers. This is why — people have weaker relationships with their customers than they think. Yeah. And if it's so easy to close a deal on a text message, and we've done hundreds of thousands of these and found it — folks don't mind if it's an AI. If it's a good AI, why won't it close it on the text message? Right? AI can be people people too. It really can. If you don't believe me, folks, go to Lennybot. Is that the URL? Lennybot.com.
**Lenny:** Lennybot.com。
**Lenny:** Lennybot.com.
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果你不相信 AI 能很会"做人",去 Lennybot 上花几个小时聊聊,人们确实在上面花很长时间,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** If you don't think AI can be people people, go spend hours on Lennybot, don't they?
**Lenny:** 是的。最棒的是你可以用语音跟 Lennybot 对话。有一个语音功能,声音听起来跟我一模一样。简直不可思议。
**Lenny:** Yeah. And the best part is you could talk to Lennybot with voice. There's a voice feature that sounds exactly like me. It's unbelievable.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对。还有一个更深层的理由让你去试试 Lennybot。带着学习的心态去体验,不要带偏见。你会发现 AI 确实可以很会"做人"。人们会花好几个小时在上面。我们今天最好的心理治疗师是谁?ChatGPT 可能是地球上最好的心理治疗师了。它就是一个很会"做人"的 AI。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. So — and one meta reason to go use Lennybot. Go in with a learning mind. Don't go in biased. You will find that AI can be people people. People spend hours. Who are our best therapists today as we record this? ChatGPT is our best therapist on planet Earth. It's a people person.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我知道这听起来有点荒唐,但如果你在销售中最强的辩护就是"我很会处理人际关系"——那你脚下的沙地正在塌陷。这个技能不够用了。"会做人"在以前是够用的——那时候客户买企业软件要花两年才能上线,根本不知道软件怎么用,全靠信仰。但现在客户期望智能体在试用阶段就能跑起来,在大支票开出之前就要看到效果——光"会做人"是远远不够的。
**Jason Lemkin:** I mean, it sounds silly, but if that is your best defense in sales — that you're a people person — the sands are sinking beneath you right now. It's not enough of a skill. People person is great when people buy enterprise software that's going to take two years to roll out and they have no idea how it works and it's a hope and a prayer. When you expect the agent to work during the pilot before the big check comes, people person is insufficient.
**Jason Lemkin:** 很好。来,告诉我:谁能帮我启动智能体、训练它、上线投产——甚至在我付款之前就搞定?这才是终极理想。这可能是最大的变化之一。我跟 Marc Benioff 聊的时候——Salesforce 是最大的公司,440 亿美元营收,是最难转向的巨轮——他说他最羡慕 Palantir 的两件事:第一是他们的高客单价(他在所有媒体和发布会上都开过这个玩笑);第二,他说"我希望每一个 Salesforce 客户都能在付款之前就上线——我今天还做不到。"
**Jason Lemkin:** Terrific. Talk. Tell me the person that's going to launch my agent, train it, and get into production for me before I even pay you. This is the dream. This is maybe one of the biggest changes of all. When I talk with Marc Benioff — and Salesforce is the biggest, right? It's $44 billion. It's the biggest ship to turn — he's like, the number one thing I envy in Palantir, one is their high deal sizes. He made that joke in all the media and all the press. But the other thing is, he said, "I wish I could — I can't today — I wish every Salesforce customer now could go live before they pay."
**Jason Lemkin:** 这跟我们以前受到的训练完全不同——以前几乎是在"套路"客户,让他们先买产品。先试一下,尽量避免做试点(pilot),即使做也要最小范围的试点,然后花几年时间慢慢推广。AI 提高了客户的期望标准。这就是为什么最好的公司在爆发——因为投资回报率实在太高了。你必须在合同电子签名之前就交付 ROI。那些还没完全接受这一点的公司,它们是增长 8% 的上市公司。它们还在玩老一套。
**Jason Lemkin:** That is so different from how we've been trained — in many ways, to almost rip off the customer, to get them to buy the product. Try first, try to avoid a pilot, then have the smallest pilot we can, then roll it out over years to different people. AI has upped the bar in terms of what customers expect. And that's why the best ones are blowing up because the ROI is so high. And so you've got to deliver the ROI before the document is e-signed today. People that haven't fully embraced that are at public companies growing 8%. They're still trying to play games.
**Lenny:** 还有什么你觉得会发生变化、但大家可能还没意识到的事情——未来几年会改变我们做销售的方式?
**Lenny:** What are some other things that you think are going to change that people may not be thinking about — that's going to change the way we do sales in the next couple years?
**Jason Lemkin:** 总体来说,我们将比以往需要更多的销售和 GTM 人才,因为赢家增长太快了——即使效率提升了,他们仍然需要比以往更多的人。我们得做个表格才能算出交叉点在哪里。显然有很多公司在缩减人数。微软已经说了,他们已经过了员工数的峰值,不会再更大了。
**Jason Lemkin:** Net net, we're going to need more sales and go-to-market professionals than ever because the winners are growing so quickly that even if they're more efficient, they will need more human beings than ever. We'd have to put together a spreadsheet to see the crossover point. Obviously, many folks are shrinking headcount. Microsoft's already said they're past peak employee. They're never going to be bigger.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我们在合作的公司中也看到了这个趋势。他们不想——他们希望尽可能精简。但 AI 已经是我们经济中非常重要的一部分了,对吧?它是一股不可阻挡的力量,每个人最终都会走向企业市场(enterprise)。每个人最终都会建销售团队。每个人最终都会去做。而且这个过程在加速。
**Jason Lemkin:** We're seeing this all across the companies we work with. They don't want to be — they want to be as lean as they can. But AI is such a huge part of our economy already, right? And it's such a force of nature and everyone is — everyone eventually goes enterprise. Everyone eventually has a sales team. Everyone eventually does it. It's happening faster.
**Jason Lemkin:** ElevenLabs——他们 50% 的销售现在来自企业客户。Vercel 刚刚聘请了 Janine,这意味着他们正在加速走向企业市场。我记得 Replit 几个月前才真正组建了销售团队,现在又加了一个 CRO。他们在没有传统销售团队的情况下做到了 1000 多万美元,但到了 10 亿美元的规模,公司里一定全是销售人员。
**Jason Lemkin:** You know, ElevenLabs — 50% of their sales is through enterprise now, right? The fact that Vercel just added Janine means they're going more enterprise by definition, right? I think Replit just added a sales team a couple months ago for real, and now they've added another CRO. So they got to $10-something million with no traditional sales team, but at a billion, it's going to be flooded with salespeople.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以如果你精通这些——如果你今天听完就去买一个智能体,亲自部署,做那些辛苦的训练工作、数据导入、每天迭代,走在前面,然后买第二个、第三个、第四个智能体——你可能会变得更有价值,在 GTM 领域拥有更好的职业体验。我相信,也希望,薪资也会更高。
**Jason Lemkin:** So if you get great at this stuff — if you go buy an agent today when you listen to this and deploy it yourself and do the hard work and train it and ingest it and iterate it every day and get ahead of it, and then get two agents, then three and then four — you may become more valuable, have a better experience in GTM, and I believe, I hope, actually be better paid.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我说过应该有年薪 25 万美元的 SDR,但他们得像 Vercel 的人一样——管理 10 个智能体,而不是 10 个人。这样他们就值 25 万,而不是 8 万或 9 万。差距其实没那么大,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** Like I've talked about that we should have $250,000-a-year SDRs, but they'd be like at Vercel — they'd be managing 10 agents, not 10 people. Then they're worth $250 grand instead of $80 grand or $90 grand. It's not that much, is it?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以一个美好的世界正在到来。Lenny,对于产品和商业来说,这是最好的时代,对吧?只不过——好处分配不均匀。你得拥有相应的技能。即使我们不再需要那么多 SDR、不再需要 BDR、即使可以砍掉一半的 AE——AI 领头公司的营收增长和发展势头是如此惊人,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** So there is a great world coming. These are the best of times, aren't they, Lenny, for product and business, right? Just — it's not evenly distributed. So you want to have — if you have those skills, even though we're not going to need these SDRs and even though we're not going to need BDRs, even though we can get rid of half of AEs, the amount of revenue and growth in AI leaders is so phenomenal, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 不只是初创公司——Google Cloud、Azure、所有地方都在大量招人。所以总体而言,对这个职业来说是利好。但对那些还在用老方法做事的人来说就不是了。你面临着风险。
**Jason Lemkin:** Not just at the startups — at the Google Clouds, at everywhere, the Azure — they're hiring so many humans that net-net it's a positive for the profession. But not for the way we've done it in the past. You're at risk.
**Lenny:** 这真的很有意思——我们仍然在大量招人,这也是我的观察——所有人都在招销售和 GTM 人才。你觉得未来几年会出现一个峰值,然后 AI 开始接管越来越多的工作吗?还是说太难预测了,因为谁知道 AI 会变得多大、这些公司会长多大?
**Lenny:** That is really interesting that we're still hiring, and this is what I've seen too — just like everyone's hiring salespeople, go-to-market people. Do you think there's going to be this peak in the next couple years of just — okay, now that AI is doing more and more of this — or is it just hard to predict because who knows how big AI gets, how big these companies get?
**Jason Lemkin:** 这个市场已经超过一万亿美元了。我看不到任何放缓的理由——而且还在加速。AI 的体量在增长。Gartner 说明年将是十年来 IT 和软件投入增长最快的一年。增长在重新加速。这种趋势能永远持续吗?不能。最终我们会消耗掉 100% 的全球 GDP。总有个上限。
**Jason Lemkin:** I mean, it is over a trillion dollars. I don't see any reason — and it's accelerating. The amount of AI is increasing. Gartner says next year will be the fastest acceleration of money deployed into IT and software in a decade. It's re-accelerated. Can that last forever? No. Eventually we consume 100% of the global GDP. There's no money left to buy. There are some limits.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但我觉得——你我,还有关注你的几百万人——我们不需要想太远,三到四年就够了。变化太大了。如果你在 AI 领域成为顶尖人才,未来两到三年你会极其抢手。如果你保持学习者的心态,这种优势会不断复利累积。所以你会得到一份比以前有趣得多的工作——即使可能更累。
**Jason Lemkin:** But I think — I don't think you and I and anyone, any of the millions of people that follow you — I don't think we got to think too much more than three to four years out here. It's too much. There's too much change. If you become a master of the universe in AI, you will be hyper-employable the next two to three years. And if you stay with a learner's mind, that will just compound. And so you will have a job that I think is far more interesting, even if more tiring, than we used to have.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但那种每周只工作 20 个小时、随便应付一下就能拿几个单子的日子——我觉得已经永远过去了。那是一段美好的时光。
**Jason Lemkin:** But the days of working 20 hours a week and kind of phoning it in and getting a few deals — I think those are forever behind us. That was a great time.
**Jason Lemkin:** 你自己也多少经历过那样的阶段吧。我觉得你现在比以前工作更辛苦了,不是吗?
**Jason Lemkin:** Even you had a little bit of that. I think you're working harder than you used to, aren't you?
**Lenny:** 是的,确实是。
**Lenny:** I am. I am.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我记得经典的 Lenny 风格,在你 10 万订阅者的时候,大概是"别来烦我。我度假比较多。我也做一些好内容。"现在这种风格还在,但我觉得你确实更拼了。
**Jason Lemkin:** I mean, the classic Lenny vibe at 100,000 subscribers was kind of "leave me alone. I take a lot of vacations. I do some good work." I mean, it's still part of your vibe, but I think you're working harder.
**Lenny:** 我现在工作非常拼。确实如此。最初的想法是打造一种悠闲的 newsletter(电子通讯)生活。我就每周写一篇 newsletter,日子会很惬意。
**Lenny:** I'm working incredibly hard. I am. The original idea was create this chill newsletter life. I'm just going to write a newsletter once a week. Life's gonna be good.
**Lenny:** 但实在是有太多很酷的机会,很难放弃,想做更多、想让它变得更大。就是——我控制不住。所以是的,我在拼命工作。
**Lenny:** And it was just hard to pass up on really cool opportunities and do more, help it grow bigger. Like, it's just — I couldn't resist. So yeah, I'm working.
**Jason Lemkin:** 其实我们所有人都应该这样。如果你没有像你说的那样或者像我说的那样的感受,那你就没有——你没有在正确的位置上——你没有在活出今天的 AI 梦想。工作量确实更大了。你应该会觉得累。应该有那种——即使某些方面变好了,工作量就是更大了。
**Jason Lemkin:** And that should be all of us though. Like, you should be — if you're not feeling what you said or even a version of what I said, then you're not living — you're not in the right — you're not living the AI dream today. It is more work. It should be tiring. It should be like — even if it's better in some ways, it is just more work.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但这是我们一生中做软件最激动人心的时刻。天哪——我连代码都不会写,Lenny,但过去 150 天我在 Replit 上做了 12 个应用,被使用了上百万次。有些应用我等了 10 年都没人做,我自己就做出来了。我在伦敦的时候做了一个完整的应用——你可以在上面练习销售 Harvey、Cursor、Replit 和 ChatGPT Enterprise——而且它真的能用。年初的时候这还根本不可能,不是吗?
**Jason Lemkin:** But this is the most exciting time of our lifetimes to be in software. I mean, good God — I can't even code, Lenny, and I've built 12 apps on Replit in the last 150 days, used a million times. I've been waiting 10 years for some of these folks to build some of these apps. I just did it myself, right? I literally just — when I was in London, I built a whole app where you can practice selling Harvey, Cursor, Replit, and ChatGPT Enterprise, and it works. We couldn't — this wasn't even possible at the start of the year, was it?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以这是一个神奇的时代。我们能用 3 个人和 20 个智能体运营一个八位数营收的公司——你说这不让人兴奋吗?要么就去加入那些增长很慢的公司——我的建议是,今天就选一条路。
**Jason Lemkin:** So these are magical times. And the fact that we can run an eight-figure business with three people and 20 agents — it's like, you know, get excited. Or go join one of these really slow-growing — like, my advice is pick one of two paths today.
**Jason Lemkin:** 要么像你我一样更拼命地工作——我们其实不是非做不可的。要么,说实话——2021 年诞生了一千家独角兽公司,对吧?其中有 800 家增长很慢,可能永远不会 IPO,可能没有退出,但它们对 8% 或 15% 的增长还算满意。如果你不想踏上我们讨论的这段旅程,我不评判。我理解。我们都是人,有家庭。不是所有人都像我一样痴迷。我觉得我算是痴迷型的。我觉得你也越来越痴迷了。
**Jason Lemkin:** Either be working harder, like even you and I are, right? We don't have to. Or honestly, I will say the truth is — there were a thousand unicorns born in 2021, right? 800 of them are growing pretty slowly, will never IPO, may not have an exit, but they're okay with 8% or 15% growth. If you don't want to be on the journey we talked about, I'm not judging. I get it. We're humans, right? We have families. Not all of us are obsessed. I think I'm kind of obsessed. I think you've become more obsessed.
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果那不是你,那就加入一家增长慢一些的公司。它们还是需要人的。虽然没那么多。但它们还是需要人。不过我建议明年就选好赛道。别幻想有什么中间路线,因为在 GTM 领域根本不存在。我觉得在产品和工程领域也同样不存在。
**Jason Lemkin:** If that's not you, join something more slow growing. They still need people. Not as many. They still need people. But I would pick a lane for next year. Don't pretend that there's this middle path going to start because it don't exist in GTM. And I don't think it exists in product or engineering either.
**Lenny:** 我真的很喜欢你对这一切的热情。在 Twitter 上就能感受到你有多享受这个过程——学习、分享。我很高兴你在分享,这本质上就是因为你对正在发生的事情和你学到的东西太兴奋了,忍不住要分享出来。我也一样。我的反应就是"天哪,我刚 vibe code 出了一个超酷的东西,我得发条推。"
**Lenny:** I love just how excited you are about this. Just like you could tell on Twitter just how fun this is for you just learning and sharing and I love that you're sharing it, but I think it's just a symptom of you're just so excited about what's happening and what you're learning and it's just like you can't help but share it. I'm in the same way. I'm just like, "Oh I just vibed this really cool thing. I got to tweet about it."
**Jason Lemkin:** 能够创造出以前做不到的东西,或者用以前不可能的方式和速度去做——这真的是一种魔法般的感觉……
**Jason Lemkin:** It's just magical that our ability to build things that we couldn't build before or build in ways and paces. It's just—
**Lenny:** 而且还在加速。
**Lenny:** And it's accelerating.
**Jason Lemkin:** 太——我是说我们可以永远聊下去,但就拿我自己来说,我选了 Replit。我选 Replit 是因为 Twitter 上大家都推荐它。我本可以选其他工具。我既不是投资人,也没有什么偏见,但我已经是前 1% 的用户了。
**Jason Lemkin:** It's so— I mean we could talk about it forever, but even for me, like I just picked Replit. I picked Replit because Twitter told me to. I could have picked another tool. Like I'm not an investor and I'm not even biased, but I'm in the top 1%.
**Lenny:** 再强调一下你刚才说的,你是 Replit 的前 1% 用户。
**Lenny:** Just to double down what you said, you're top 1% user of Replit.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah.
**Lenny:** 哇。
**Lenny:** Wow.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。所以大约 170 天前我刚开始用的时候,它其实并不太好用。后来 V2 版本出来了,好了很多。幻觉(hallucinations)消失了,然后——大家一定要对这个感到兴奋——很多人可能不知道,其他工具也一样,大约 45 天前 V3 版本发布的时候,它已经能让智能体之间互相对话了。所以当你——我再说一次,我真的不会写代码——当我遇到问题、想弄明白怎么实现某个功能的时候,智能体会召唤一个架构师或者另一个智能体(agent),它们会互相辩论、争论,然后得出正确答案。第一次看到这个的时候,我真的是从椅子上跌下来了。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. So it really didn't work well when I started about 170 days ago. Then a V2 came out and it got better. The hallucinations went away and then this is just like— you got to get excited about this— folks may not know this, and other tools, when V3 came out, I don't know, 45 days ago, now it has agents talking to agents. So what happens is when you— and I again I can't really code— so when I have an issue and I'm trying to figure out how to do something, the agent calls in an architect or another agent and they debate and argue with it and they come up with the right answer. The first time this happened I just fell out of my chair.
**Jason Lemkin:** 这简直太——不仅仅是神奇,我的意思是,好吧,你可以输入一段提示词(prompt)然后生成一个粗糙的应用,那玩意儿根本不能用。但现在,150 天之后,你已经能看到多个智能体在互相辩论如何写出更好的代码,而你甚至不需要会编程。我是说,这是有史以来最伟大的时代——唯一比现在更好的时代就是明年了,对吧?我一直在期待。
**Jason Lemkin:** It's just so— not only is it magical, I mean great, you can do a prompt and build a crappy app, it doesn't work. Now like 150 days later you have agents debating how to build better code with each other and you don't even need to know how to code. I mean this is the greatest— the only greater time is going to be next year, right? I've been waiting.
**Jason Lemkin:** 你知道这些,但其他人可能不知道——刚才说的是我这个不会写代码的人都能做到的事。另一个显而易见的事情是,你知道,如果你在构建任何——为什么大家在这些工具上效率这么高?因为全世界所有的开源软件(open source)都已经在这些工具里了。如果你想构建一个以前已经有人做过的东西,那简直太容易了。真正创新的东西依然很难,对吧?并没有变得更容易,但说真的,这些工具太棒了。
**Jason Lemkin:** And you know this but other folks— I mean that's me building without being able to code. The other Captain Obvious thing, you know, if you're building any— why are folks so productive on all these tools? Every bit of open source software in the world is in these tools. If you want to build something that's been built before, it's so easy. The novel stuff's really hard, right? It's not any easier, but man, these are great.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以在 GTM(Go-To-Market,市场进入策略)方面,在销售方面,AI 的应用还慢了几拍,原因可能有很多。我觉得其中一个原因,说起来有点讽刺,就是看创始人对什么感兴趣。所以市场营销在 AI 应用方面落后于销售。比如 AI SDR(Sales Development Representative,销售开发代表)已经爆发式增长了。我真的不太理解为什么。我投资过几个 AI 之前的工具。我投资了 Salesloft,它以 25 亿美元被收购了,那算是最后一批交易了,2020 年左右的,我是种子轮投资的。当时没人想做那个赛道。现在全世界的人都想做 AI SDR CRM。
**Jason Lemkin:** And so for GTM, for sales, it's a couple beats behind and there's probably a bunch of reasons for it. Some of it is, I think, ironically, is just where founders are interested. So marketing is behind sales for AI. Like the AI SDR has exploded. I don't really know why. I invested in a couple of pre-AI tools. I invested in Salesloft which was sold for two and a half billion as like the last deal, the 2020 ones, like the seed investment. No one wanted to be in that category. Now everyone in the world wants to build an AI SDR CRM.
**Jason Lemkin:** 但市场营销方面就慢一些,因为人们并不真正想去做"营销领域的 Cursor"。大家嘴上说想做,但实际上并不是——不过它终将到来。创新只会加速,只会越来越快。所以不要对这些东西持怀疑态度。
**Jason Lemkin:** But marketing is slower just because people don't really want to build the Cursor for marketing. People say they do but it's just not— but it will get there. But the innovation will just accelerate. It's just going to accelerate. So don't be a skeptic on this stuff.
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果你没有我这么兴奋,那我在这个话题上的最后一条建议是这样的。如果你没有我的那种感觉,我建议你在假期里这样做。当你有一个安静的时刻,在你喝着热红酒或热巧克力的时候,打开你的浏览器。用无痕模式(incognito)打开。访问你自己的应用,用一个全新的 Gmail 地址把所有流程都走一遍。试试客服支持,看看你的客服体验怎么样。试试联系销售。注册一下新闻通讯。把所有的东西都试一遍。试用你自己的产品。
**Jason Lemkin:** Like if you're not as excited as me, then here's my last bit of advice on this for folks. If you don't feel what I feel, here's my advice over the holidays. When you have a quiet moment, when you're having your mulled wine or your hot chocolate or whatever, go fire up your browser. Do it in incognito. Go to your app and do everything with a fresh Gmail address. Try support. See how your support is. Try to contact sales. Sign up for the newsletter. Do everything. Try your product.
**Jason Lemkin:** 如果你安静地做完这些,你的心——你会为你看到的一些东西而哭。你会为你的客服有多差而哭。你会为销售回复你的速度有多慢而哭。你会为好几件事情而哭。挑那个让你在喝热红酒时哭得最厉害的问题,然后去买一个智能体来解决它。
**Jason Lemkin:** If you do this quietly, your heart— you're going to cry about some of the things you've seen. You're going to cry how bad your support is. You're going to cry how long it takes sales to get back to you. You're going to cry about a couple things. Pick the thing that makes you cry the most over your mulled wine and go buy that agent and fix it.
**Jason Lemkin:** 然后你就会拥有我们这样的热情了。我一直建议大家这样做。只是以前这件事没有那么容易付诸行动。但你们中有太多人迷失其中,忘记了这些东西——忘记了入职引导流程(onboarding workflow),忘记了客服支持,忘记了"联系我们"页面有多烂,你被战略层面的东西搞得晕头转向。所以你必须每年至少一次,最好每个季度一次,做这个无痕模式测试。就算是 Lenny 的新闻通讯,我打赌我们也能找到某个你忘记去优化的地方。
**Jason Lemkin:** And then you will have the passion that we have. I always counsel people to do this. It just wasn't as actionable before. But so many of you just get lost, you forget about what these things— you forget about the onboarding workflow and you forget about support and you forget how bad "contact me" is, and you're so lost in the strategic. So you got to, once a year, ideally once a quarter, just do this incognito mode test. And even for Lenny's newsletter I bet we can find some part you forgot to touch.
**Lenny:** 不会的,不可能。我开玩笑的。
**Lenny:** Nope, not gonna happen. I'm just joking.
**Jason Lemkin:** 你肯定会说:"天哪,我不敢相信自从我上线 Substack 之后就没碰过这个地方。这个页面甚至都没有跳转到正确的——它直接 404 了。"
**Jason Lemkin:** You're like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I didn't touch that since I launched the Substack. It doesn't even go to the right— that page just gets a 404."
**Lenny:** 假期里我一定要做这件事。而且我很喜欢的一点是——以前的建议通常是,好吧,给你的产品经理发邮件告诉他们你发现了这些 bug。但你现在说的是,不,找一个智能体来长期负责这件事。让它为所有人持续提升体验。
**Lenny:** I'm going to do this over the holidays. And I love that this— like usually the advice would have been, okay, email your product manager and tell them you found all these bugs. What you're saying here is no, find an agent to take care of this in the future. Like make this a much better experience for everyone always.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。是的。如果那是让你哭的那个问题,它可能会激励你真正去行动。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. Yeah. And if it's the one that makes you cry, it may motivate you to do it.
**Lenny:** 是的。而且你不用——你又不需要把它直接发布到生产环境。你也不需要让你的 CEO 审批这件事。就像是,给他们展示一下你可能能做到什么。"这是我周末做的东西。也许我们可以考虑在我们的网站上做这样的改进。"
**Lenny:** Yeah. And you don't— it's not like you have to publish it to production. It's not like you have to have your, you know, CEO approve this thing. It's just like show them what you might be able to do. Here's what I did over the weekend. Maybe we should explore doing this thing with our site.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。那个震撼感——我的下巴。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. The jaw is just— my jaw.
**Lenny:** 是的。
**Lenny:** Yeah.
**Jason Lemkin:** 天哪。
**Jason Lemkin:** Oh man.
**Lenny:** Jason,我觉得我可以跟你聊好几个小时,但我想现在是个很好的收尾时机。还有什么你想分享的吗?有什么想对听众们说的最后的话吗?
**Lenny:** Jason, I feel like I could chat with you for hours, but I think this is a good point to wrap things up. Is there anything that you wanted to share or is there anything you want to leave listeners with?
**Jason Lemkin:** 最后一件事,也许是我了解到大家一直在关心的问题,我们可以谈一下。很多人都很担心。"嘿,这会影响人们的工作。我该怎么办?好吧,我按你说的做了。我做了无痕模式测试。我准备引入这个智能体、这个销售智能体或客服智能体。我试过了,我甚至做了,但我担心会遭到抵制,担心人们会失去工作。"
**Jason Lemkin:** One last thing maybe that comes up that I've learned that are on people's minds and we can address is a lot of folks are concerned. Hey, this will impact people's jobs. What do I do? Like, okay, I did what you said. I did the incognito mode. I'm going to bring in this agent, this sales agent or this support agent. I've tried, I've even did, but I'm worried I'm going to get pushback and people are going to lose their jobs.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对于这个问题我没有完美答案,但我觉得要坦诚。坦诚地说,对于最优秀的人,AI 会让他们更高效。对于最优秀的人,AI 甚至会很有趣。对于最优秀的人,AI 会让他们把工作做得更好。如果它确实对团队中的某些人构成了威胁,那未来终究会来的。我们不如主动拥抱它。
**Jason Lemkin:** I don't have the perfect answer to this one, but I think be honest about it. Be honest that for the best people it will make them more productive. For the best people it will be even fun. For the best people they will be better at their job. And if it is a threat to some of the folks on the team, the future's coming anyway. We might as well embrace it.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以当我听到——我不会——我会积极地面对这件事。我会解释说它帮助的是最优秀的人。但我觉得在组织内部回避这个问题并不是正确的做法。它确实会带来变化,如果某些岗位从一个形态变成另一个形态,那就是 AI 时代的现实。不要隐瞒它。我觉得隐瞒没有好处。
**Jason Lemkin:** So when I hear— I wouldn't— I would be positive about it. I would explain it helps the best people. But I don't think dancing around it is the right answer in your organization. It will result in change and if some jobs change from one world to the other, that's life in the age of AI. Don't hide it. I don't think it helps.
**Lenny:** 我很喜欢的一点是,无论是你的案例还是 Vercel 的 Jean 的案例,你们都没有裁掉任何人。你的情况是 SDR 自己离职了,她的情况是把他们从入站(inbound)调到了出站(outbound),或者从出站调到了入站。她只是重新调配了他们,让他们在其他地方产生更大的价值。
**Lenny:** I love that in your case and in Jean's case at Vercel, it's not like you let anyone go. In your case the SDRs quit, and in her case she moved them from, I believe, inbound to outbound or outbound to inbound. She just kind of reshuffled them to have higher impact somewhere else.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我觉得这是一个很重要、非常重要的点。这也是我觉得媒体制造了太多戏剧性的另一件事。我不认为 AI——我是说 AI 确实导致了一些裁员。但即便是我们读到的大部分案例,AI 也只是用来给裁员找个理由。只是一个甩锅的借口。
**Jason Lemkin:** I think that's an important, a really important point. This is another thing that I think the media creates too much drama on. I don't think AI— I mean AI has led to some layoffs. But even though most of the ones we read, it's just a justification to do layoffs. It's just a reason to blame it on.
**Jason Lemkin:** 更大的问题在于,离职的人不会再用人来回补了。我们会用 AI 来回补。我们就是这么做的。我们没有解雇——我整个职业生涯中从来没有解雇过任何人,除了因为不当行为解雇过几次,对吧?那种——现在那种事情你当天就得处理。但基本上我从来没有因为其他原因解雇过任何人。他们离开了,这一次我们就说现在轮到智能体上场了,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** What's a much bigger issue is that people just won't be backfilled with humans. We will use AI to backfill. That's what we did. Like we didn't fire— I've never fired anyone in my whole career other than for inappropriate conduct a few times, right? That's— you fire today for that stuff. But pretty much I've never fired anyone that didn't do something inappropriate. They just— when they go, this time we just said now it's the agents, right?
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以这是比那些随机裁员大得多的一股自然力量,而那些裁员可能并不是真的因为 AI,对吧?大概率不是因为你在 2025 年引入了 20 个智能体。很可能只是你本来就想缩减规模,而 AI 只是个借口。所以 AI 对你的威胁可能比你想象的要小。但它确实意味着,Lenny,如果你不想拥抱 AI 的话,也许就别离开你现在的工作了。
**Jason Lemkin:** And so that's a much bigger force of nature than some random layoffs which probably aren't really due to AI, right? It's probably not because you brought in 20 agents in 2025. It's probably because you just want to downsize anyway and this is the excuse. So it's probably less of a threat to you than you think AI is. But what it does mean is if you don't want to embrace it, Lenny, maybe don't leave your current job.
**Lenny:** 是的,我正想说——
**Lenny:** Yeah, I was just—
**Jason Lemkin:** 也许就别离开你现在的工作了。
**Jason Lemkin:** Maybe don't leave your current job.
**Lenny:** 因为新公司可能已经不需要招这个岗位了。
**Lenny:** Because the new place might not be hiring for this role.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的,我有——天哪,我有一个我很欣赏的销售高管。我认识他很多年了。他从一份 10 万美元年薪的工作做到了差不多 80 万美元年薪,然后降到了一份 20 万美元的工作,又因为不喜欢而辞职了,现在他完全找不到工作了。他又回去上学了。所以也许留下来吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah, I have— God, I have a sales exec who I love. I'd known him for many years and he went from a 100K job, then almost an 800K job, then down to a 200K job, then left that one because he didn't like it, and now he can't get a job at all. He's back in school. So maybe stay.
**Lenny:** 也许留下来吧。
**Lenny:** Maybe stay.
**Jason Lemkin:** 留下来也没什么丢人的,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** No shame in staying, is there?
**Lenny:** 是的,我喜欢这个说法。好了,说到这里,Jason,我们进入非常令人期待的闪电问答环节(Lightning Round)。这是你第二次参加闪电问答了,所以我会快一些。第一个问题,有没有你经常推荐给别人的几本书?
**Lenny:** Yeah, I like that. Well, with that, Jason, we have reached our very exciting lightning round. This is your second time going through a lightning round, so I'll make it quick. First question, what are a couple books you often find yourself recommending to other people?
**Jason Lemkin:** 最近有人请我为一本书写序,作者是我在世界上最尊敬的营收领袖之一。我读了一部分。我没法写,因为虽然写得很好,但内容已经过时了。在 AI 方面不够与时俱进。而且就是——不知道我们在这次节目里有没有说过,可能是在开录之前说的。各个具体战术(plays)仍然有效,但那些整套的作战手册(playbooks)已经不太管用了。
**Jason Lemkin:** I was recently asked to write a forward for a book from one of the revenue leaders I have the most respect for in the world. I read a little bit of it. I couldn't do it because as good as it was, it was dated. It wasn't current enough in AI. And there's just— I don't know if we said it this— it might have been before we started the pod. The plays all work, but the playbooks don't really work as well.
**Jason Lemkin:** 很多 GTM 相关的书都是作战手册,特别是那些卖课程之类的人写的,但它们就是一套固定的手册。远离那些手册吧。拥抱具体的战术。所以,把所有这些市场进入和销售的书都读一读,从中提取精华,这本来就一直是读书的目标,对吧?从一本书里挑两三个有用的点。但我觉得我在等 2026 年 GTM 领域出现新一代的书,因为我现在读到的所有东西都太回顾过去了。所以保持一点怀疑。抓住具体战术,但不要照搬整套手册。
**Jason Lemkin:** So many of these GTM books are playbooks, especially folks selling courses and stuff, but they're playbooks. Run from the playbooks. Embrace the plays. And so, read all these go-to-market and sales books and take great items from them, which was always the goal from a book, right? Pick two or three things out of it. But I think I'm waiting for the next level of books in GTM in 2026 because everything I've read, it's just too backwards looking. So just be a skeptic. Grab the plays but don't adopt the playbook.
**Lenny:** 我刚刚邀请了 Lovable 的增长负责人 Elena Verna 来上节目。她也给了同样的建议,说她过去 20 年在增长领域用过的那些作战手册,在 AI 公司里已经不管用了。
**Lenny:** I just had the head of growth from Lovable, Elena Verna, on the podcast. She had the same advice that all these playbooks that she's used over the last 20 years in growth just don't work anymore at AI companies.
**Lenny:** 下一个问题。你有没有最近很喜欢的电影或电视剧?
**Lenny:** Next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed?
**Jason Lemkin:** 那个叫什么来着?叫什么名字?Pluribus。是叫这个吗?
**Jason Lemkin:** What's this one called? What's it called? Pluribus. Is that what it's called?
**Lenny:** Pluribus。是的。
**Lenny:** Pluribus. Yeah.
**Jason Lemkin:** 在追那个。
**Jason Lemkin:** Watching that.
**Lenny:** 那部——
**Lenny:** It's—
**Jason Lemkin:** 而且这——所以这是一部好剧。这让我意识到为什么你应该对 AI 和 GTM 感到兴奋,就是因为 Pluribus,因为在 Pluribus 里面有一个蜂巢心智(hive mind),对吧?我们所有人都互相连接——所有人,除了 11 个人或 13 个人。他们全都连接在一起。人们没有意识到这一点。这就是为什么——现在我们做这期节目的全部要点,也许如果我有幸的话我们还能做第三期,全部要点就是让你的 AI 智能体做到几乎跟人类一样好,但它们是 7x24 全天候工作、而且可以规模化的。这已经相当厉害了。如果它能以相当接近你的人类员工的水平,做 10 倍甚至 100 倍的工作量,全天候不间断,那就是你今天根本不具备的一种资源。这件事没那么复杂。
**Jason Lemkin:** And this is— so it's a good show. This is what I realized is why you should be excited about AI and GTM is Pluribus, because in Pluribus there's like a hive mind, right? We're all connected— all the people except 11 people or 13 people. They're all connected. People don't get this. This is why— right now the whole point, when we're doing this, maybe we'll do a third one if I'm lucky, the whole point is just get your AI agents to be almost as good as humans, but working 24/7 and at scale. That's pretty damn good. If it can do 10 or 100 times more work 24/7, as pretty good as your human, that's a resource you don't even have today. It's not that complicated.
**Jason Lemkin:** 当 AI 真正成为蜂巢心智的时候,当它能在你所有的智能体之间共享所有数据、知道所有发生的事情的时候,那时候人类在 GTM 领域才真正面临威胁。当它们成为蜂巢心智的时候,它们会比现在强大太多。现在——Salesforce 作为 CRM 正在经历一个小小的复兴。有很多原因,虽然它很老了,对吧?它是 90 年代创立的。但它已经成为了这些 AI GTM 智能体的中枢平台。所有智能体都接入它。所以 Salesforce 已经成为了所有这些智能体的数据库。
**Jason Lemkin:** When AI really is the hive mind, when it can share all of the data across all of your agents and knows everything that happens, then humans are at risk in GTM. They're going to be so much better when they're the hive mind. Right now— and there's a bit of a renaissance for Salesforce as a CRM. There's a bunch of reasons, even though it's old, right? It's founded in the 90s. It has become the hub for these AI GTM agents. They all plug in. So Salesforce has become the database for all these.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以那就是 Pluribus 蜂巢心智的一个小小缩影。但当所有这些智能体真正能够互相对话、真正共享所有 GTM 数据和所有客户数据的时候——举个例子,下次我们再做节目的时候,那 380 万读 Lenny 的读者以及所有的智能体能够一起共享数据。没有任何人类——我不是要把 Pluribus 变成一档 AI GTM 节目。但这是我的关联。不过挺贴切的,对吧?
**Jason Lemkin:** So that's a little hint of the Pluribus hive mind. But when all these agents can talk with each other for real and share all their GTM data and all the customer data and everything— on the one, next time we do it, the 3.8 million people that read Lenny's and all the agents can share data together. No human— I don't mean to turn Pluribus into an AI GTM show. But there's my connection. But it's pretty good, right?
**Lenny:** 我懂了。我懂了。天哪,那部剧太好看了。我感觉每一集我都会收到 Apple TV 的推送说 Pluribus 有新一集了。我就想"我等不及了赶紧去看"。每一集结尾都让你觉得"好想知道接下来会怎样"。好,下一个问题。有没有你最近发现的特别喜欢的产品?比如一个应用、一个设备,或者什么穿戴用品?
**Lenny:** I get it. I get it. Oh man, that show's so good. I feel like every episode I get these pushes from Apple TV like there's a new episode of Pluribus. I'm like I can't wait to go watch that. They just leave— each episode ends and like, oh I can't wait to see what happens next. Okay. Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love, like an app or a gadget or clothing?
**Jason Lemkin:** 最近两周可能没有什么特别的。我就说一个跟 GTM 相关的小发现吧。因为大家都在聊 Sora 这个那个,聊视频,我也喜欢,我理解。但有一个应用叫 Reve。它以前叫 Reevar。是做图像生成的,它的团队自己从头构建了自己的图像大语言模型(image LLM)。
**Jason Lemkin:** Maybe not the last two weeks. I'll just give a small one just for GTM. There is— because everyone's about Sora this and all of this and video and I love it, I get it. But there is an app called Reve. It used to be Reevar. It's for imaging and the folks that built it built their own image LLM on their own.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我提到它的原因是,我每天都在用它。用提示词(prompt)它能做很多酷的事情,对吧?但如果你想为市场营销做一些很酷的东西,如果你想创作一张很棒的图片——我有一个 CMO 就是用我的产品做这些事的——我不知道还有什么工具在这种场景下比它更好。那种我们过去要折腾半天的事——以前我们得打开 Canva,试着去做东西,或者更惨的是,等四天让别人帮你做。这是我的秘密武器之一。我有几个大家不太知道的常用工具,它就是 app.reve——它改过名,但就是一个简单的提示词界面。打开它,输入你想做的任何图片。对于很多我们常做的枯燥的 B2B 素材,我觉得它是最好的。
**Jason Lemkin:** And the reason I bring this up, I use it every single day, is because it can do a lot of cool things with a prompt, right? But if you want to do cool stuff for marketing, if you want to create a great image— I have a CMO buying my product doing this— I don't know a tool that is better for that kind of stuff. That stuff that we used to torture— we used to fire up Canva and try to create things or even worse, wait four days for someone to do it for you. This is one of my cheat sheets. I have a couple tools that I use that people don't get, but it's app.reve— it changed its name, but it's just a simple prompt. Go to it, type in whatever image you want to make. And for a lot of the boring B2B stuff we like to do, I find it's the best.
**Lenny:** 它的网址是 reve.com。
**Lenny:** And it's reve.com.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的。Reve。
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah. Reve.
**Lenny:** 我正在看这个网站。"水豚在安静的苔藓花园中送抹茶。"
**Lenny:** I'm looking at it right now. "Capybara delivering matcha through a quiet moss garden."
**Jason Lemkin:** app.reve.com。
**Jason Lemkin:** app.reve.com.
**Lenny:** 是的。太棒了。
**Lenny:** Yeah. Sweet.
**Jason Lemkin:** 哦,你在生成图片。你说——
**Jason Lemkin:** Oh, you're making the image. You said—
**Lenny:** 我只是在——他们给我展示的示例。好吧,我现在在他们网站上。是的,这个很棒。你是说它比 Midjourney 和其他那些工具都好?
**Lenny:** I'm just like— they're giving me examples here. Well, I'm on the website here. Yeah, this is great. And you're saying this is better than like Midjourney and all these other—
**Jason Lemkin:** 在这个使用场景下是的。
**Jason Lemkin:** For this use case.
**Lenny:** 我和你一样,我们只是想做——我想做一个缩略图。我想给文章配一张图。就是我那个小众内容,我就是想做好它。我觉得在这个使用场景下真的没有比它更好的了。所以——
**Lenny:** And you and I, we just want to do— I want to do a thumbnail. I want an image for my article. I just— my niche content thing I just want to do. I've got to do it. I just don't think there's anything better for this use case. So—
**Jason Lemkin:** 我每天用它两三次,而且我什么工具都在用。
**Jason Lemkin:** I use it two or three times a day and I use all this stuff.
**Lenny:** 好的。又给大家分享了一波独家情报(alpha)。好的。还有最后两个问题。你有没有一句常常回想起来的人生格言,在工作或生活中反复用到,甚至经常分享给别人的?
**Lenny:** Okay. More alpha to share with the audience. Okay. Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often find yourself coming back to in work or in life that you often maybe even share with other people?
**Jason Lemkin:** 我就说一个跟我们当下这个特殊时期有关的吧。你现在的这家创业公司,可能就是你最好的创业公司。
**Jason Lemkin:** I'll just tell you one in the weird time we're at. This is probably your best startup.
**Jason Lemkin:** 我昨天刚跟一个朋友聊过。一家创业公司刚从顶级两三家风投之一那里融了 2000 万美元。创始人第二天就辞职了。前天还有一个电话,一家 2.5 亿美元规模的公司的 CEO 刚辞职了。没有继任者,问有没有认识的人,想加入一家热门的 AI 创业公司。
**Jason Lemkin:** I was just talking yesterday with a friend of mine. A startup just raised 20 million from a top two or three VC. Founder just quit the next day. Just on the call the other day yesterday, CEO of a company at 250 million just quit. No successor, know anyone to join a hot AI startup.
**Jason Lemkin:** 也许大多数时候确实有些时候和场合适合离开。但当你已经有了客户,当你已经有了一两百万甚至五百万、一千万美元的营收——但我们往往觉得重新做到那个一千万营收很容易,觉得重新找到 100 个或 200 个满意客户很容易。在 AI 时代,辞职创业可能看起来更容易了,但我宁愿守着那 500 个满意客户,打造出一款牛逼的 AI 产品,卖给这 500 个满意客户,也不愿从零开始去寻找他们。从头去找那一千万或两千万美元的营收。
**Jason Lemkin:** Maybe most of the time there are times and places to just quit. When you have customers, when you have a million or two million or five or 10 million in revenue— but we often think it's easier to get back to that 10 million of revenue, to get back to 100 happy customers or 200. It might seem easier to quit in the age of AI, but I'd rather take those 500 happy customers, build that badass AI product, and sell it to 500 happy customers than go off to find them from scratch. Go have to find that 10 or 20 million.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以这就是——我前几天还跟第三个创始人聊了,他的公司刚突破一亿美元,做了 10 年了,想离开去做一个机器人创业项目。我说,我理解你,哥们,但你想想,你在这家公司有九位数的股权。也许再上一个台阶吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** So that's— I literally had a third conversation with a founder just crossing 100 million that wanted to leave and do a robotic startup after 10 years. I'm like, I get it, man, but like, you know, you have nine figures of equity in this company. Maybe go to the next level.
**Jason Lemkin:** 所以现在太多事情在发生了。有的在减速,有的在加速。我通常觉得,对于创始人来说——不一定对所有人都适用——最好的创业公司就是你目前所在的那家。如果你不开心,那就把它变成你的热门 AI 创业公司。关键是这样的——Lenny,还不晚。有时候在社交媒体上感觉好像已经晚了。好吧,也许现在想低成本做出下一个 ChatGPT 是晚了。行。但对于大多数事情来说,真的还不晚。我们仍然处于非常早期。我们甚至还没有好的 AI 营销工具。那些 AI SDR 还处于很早期的阶段。市场格局还没有固化。大语言模型(LLM)还在飞速进步。
**Jason Lemkin:** So there's so much going on. They're decelerating, accelerating. I just usually think the best startup, for founders, not necessarily for everybody else, is the one you're already working at. And if you're not happy, turn that into your hot AI startup. It's not— here's the thing. It's not too late, Lenny. Sometimes it feels like it's too late on social media. Maybe it's too late to build the next ChatGPT on the cheap. Okay? But for most stuff, it's not too late. It's still so early. We don't even have great AI marketing tools. We're really early on these AI SDRs. The markets have not hardened. The LLMs are getting so much better.
**Jason Lemkin:** 真的是——兄弟,如果你想做,还来得及。所以你这辈子最好的创业公司,可能就是你今天正在做的这家。别放弃。如果你有满意的客户,就别放弃。也许这就是那句格言:如果你有满意的客户,就别放弃。他们会从你这里买更多东西的。
**Jason Lemkin:** It is— dude, if you want it, it's not too late. So the best startup you're ever going to have probably is the one you're working at today. Don't quit. Don't quit if you have happy customers. Maybe that's the motto: don't quit if you have happy customers. They'll buy more from you.
**Lenny:** 我很喜欢这样的建议。它赋予力量、充满乐观,而且我觉得在很多方面让人放松下来。这真的太棒了。
**Lenny:** I love advice like that. That's empowering and optimistic and destresses people, I think, in a lot of ways. So that is great.
**Lenny:** 最后一个问题。到现在为止你做了多少届 SaaStr 了?SaaStr 已经办了多少年了?
**Lenny:** Final question. How many SaaStrs have you done at this point? Like how many years of SaaStr have there been?
**Jason Lemkin:** 天哪。我们办了——第一届大型的——你知道的,之前我们办过一些小聚会,对吧?然后 2015 年办了第一届规模较大的。所以从 2016 年——2020 年我们停了一年,但 2021 年办了。我们是 2021 年湾区唯一办了活动的。那是 12 届了吧?12 年。好长时间了,哥们。
**Jason Lemkin:** Good god. We've done— the first big— we did some meetups, you know that, right? And then we did the first bigger one in 2015. So 2016— we did take a break in 2020, but we did in 2021. We're the only event in the Bay Area in 2021. So is that 12 of them? 12 years. It's a long time, man.
**Lenny:** 那在这些活动中总共有多少场演讲?你估计一下。
**Lenny:** And then how many talks have there been across those, would you say, total?
**Jason Lemkin:** 然后我们在欧洲办了 7 届。所以美国 12 届,欧洲 7 届。
**Jason Lemkin:** And then we've done seven in Europe. So 12 in the US and seven in Europe.
**Lenny:** 好。所以大约 20 届。好的。20 场活动。
**Lenny:** Yes. So about 20. Okay. 20 events.
**Jason Lemkin:** 20 场大型活动。是的。
**Jason Lemkin:** 20 bigger events. Yeah.
**Lenny:** 我估计,比如每年的年度大会,如果算上那些小的分享,300 场?
**Lenny:** I don't know, like the annual one probably, if you count the smaller ones, 300?
**Jason Lemkin:** 加起来这些年——超过 4000 场。
**Jason Lemkin:** So thousands— 4,000 over the years.
**Lenny:** 那我的问题来了。有没有一场演讲是你觉得最棒的——你最喜欢的演讲是哪一场?在所有这些活动中有没有哪一场你觉得"哦,这场真的很突出。我经常分享给别人。"如果人们只看一场 SaaStr 的演讲,你会推荐他们看哪一场?
**Lenny:** So then here's the question. Is there a talk that you think is the one— what's your favorite talk across all those events? Is there one you're like, "Oh, this one really stood out. This is one I always share with people." One that you think people might— you'd want people to check out if they were to check out one talk across all SaaStr.
**Jason Lemkin:** 很有意思。就像 B2B 领域的很多事情一样。10 年里一切基本都没变,然后突然之间所有东西都过时了。对吧。如果你想看一个老一点的,不是很老,但在互联网 AI 时代算老了的,一个我觉得会改变你思维方式的——去看我和 Ben Chestnut 在他们被收购之后做的那一场,因为那是一个神奇的时刻。那场演讲叫"通往十亿美元路上所有会崩坏的东西"(Everything That Breaks on the Way to One Billion)。只有 23000 次观看。对 Lenny 来说这不算什么,但对我来说已经很不错了。好吧。
**Jason Lemkin:** It's interesting. It's like a lot of things in B2B. Everything was pretty much the same for 10 years and then all of a sudden everything's out of date. Right. If you wanted to watch an older one, not that old, but old in internet AI time, that I think will change the way you think, watch the one I did with Ben Chestnut right after they got acquired, because that's a magical time. It's called "Everything That Breaks on the Way to One Billion." It's only got 23,000 views. That's nothing for Lenny, but for me, that's pretty good. Okay.
**Jason Lemkin:** 那是一个刚刚卖掉一家十亿美元公司的特殊时刻,他在里面谈到了这笔交易是怎么差点黄掉的,他挑战了我们已知的几乎所有 B2B 指标——以那个规模经营一家盈利的公司,完全不在乎客户终身价值(CLTV)和获客成本(CAC)或者任何这些指标,真正对客户重要的是什么。今天的 Mailchimp 还像当年那么前沿吗?对吧?也许不了。但那一场——当我回过头看的时候,因为其他演讲都大同小异。我们的思维方式很少真正受到挑战。每个人都在"说自己的书"(talking their book),对吧?你非常擅长让嘉宾不"说自己的书"。但那一场我觉得真的很棒。
**Jason Lemkin:** And it's a moment in time right after he sold a billion dollar company where he talks about how the deal almost fell apart, where he challenges almost every B2B metric we know— running a profitable business at that scale, not really caring about CLTV and CAC or any of these things, what really matters for customers. Is Mailchimp as cutting edge as it was today? Right? Maybe not. But that's one— when I look at it, because everything's kind of the same. We don't really get challenged in the way we think. Everyone's talking their book, right? You're so good at getting people to not talk their book. But that one I think is a great one.
**Jason Lemkin:** 然后如果大家想看一场关于 GTM 的,就看一些我喜欢的。我们做过一场——是最近的。Matt Plank——因为这些人曾在我的团队。Rippling 的 Matt Plankhu 和曾任 Brex 首席营收官(CRO)的 Sam Blond 一起做的。那场叫"Rippling 超高速增长的秘密"(Rippling's Secrets to Hypergrowth)。听起来像 Rippling 的广告,不过也没关系,对吧?但因为 Sam 曾经——他们一起共事过,现在 Sam 在董事会——他们有两个 CRO 之间那种坦诚的默契和 Lenny 式的学习者心态。这场关于 Rippling 营收策略的演讲,在 GTM 方面是 14 分满分 10 分的水平。
**Jason Lemkin:** And then if people wanted to watch a GTM one, just some favorite ones. We did this one— it's a recent one. Matt Plank— because these guys were on my team. Matt Plankhu of Rippling did one with Sam Blond who was CRO of Brex. It's called "Rippling's Secrets to Hypergrowth." It sounds like a commercial for Rippling, which is okay, right? But because Sam was— they worked together and now Sam's on the board and— they have a fluency of two CROs who are honest and have a Lenny-style learner's mindset. This one on the revenue playbook from Rippling, it's a 14 out of 10 for GTM.
**Lenny:** 我刚请了 Matt McInnis 来上节目。他是 Rippling 的前 COO,现在是 CPO。所以那两期可以搭配着看。
**Lenny:** I just had Matt McInnis on the podcast. Former COO, now CPO at Rippling. So that would be a good combo of those two.
**Lenny:** Jason,不知道你有没有意识到,你是完美的播客嘉宾,因为你在这个领域有非常深厚的经验,我问什么你都有答案。而且你现在就活在我们所有人都在走向的未来里,你亲身实践着告诉我们未来会是什么样的、它是怎么运作的、你怎么到达那里、什么不该做、它会带来什么。所以我真的非常感谢你来这里分享这些建议。我期待我们有更多次播客对话。感谢你来做这期节目。
**Lenny:** Jason, I don't know if you know this, but you're the perfect podcast guest because you have such deep experience in the space that you just have answers to everything I ask. Plus, you're now just living in this future that we're all heading towards and you're like hands-on telling us here's how the future will be and here's how it works and here's how you can get there and here's what you shouldn't do and here's what it'll bring. So I'm just so thankful that you're here sharing all this advice with us. I'm excited for many more podcast conversations. So thanks for doing this.
**Jason Lemkin:** 好的,Lenny,你是最棒的。我只是一个超级粉丝。能来这里是我的幸运。所以谢谢你。
**Jason Lemkin:** All right, Lenny, you're the best. I'm just a super fan. I'm lucky to be here. So thank you.
**Lenny:** 最后我想问你一下,听众们可以怎样帮到你?作为收尾问题。
**Lenny:** Let me just ask you, how can listeners be useful to you? As a closing question.
**Jason Lemkin:** 对我来说最有趣的事——我们有两个网站,saastr.com 和 SaaStr AI。就去 saastr.ai 看看,试试我们做的工具。试试我们聊过的估值计算器。试试 AI VC,试试我们的任何工具,好好玩一玩,然后分享你的反馈。因为我等了 10 年才等到能为 SaaStr 社区做工具的机会。现在我想做 20 个。所以在此之外,我们聊了你应该去买的那些工具,但自己动手做东西也挺有趣的。所以试试我们的工具,给我善意但有批判性的反馈,但带着一些善意。
**Jason Lemkin:** The fun thing for me— we have two websites, saastr.com and SaaStr AI. Just go to saastr.ai, and just play with the tools we built. Play with the valuation calculator we talked about. Play with the AI VC, play with any of our tools, and just have fun and share any feedback. Because I've waited 10 years to build tools for the SaaStr community. Now I want to build like 20. So on the side, we've talked about tools you should go buy, but building your own stuff is pretty fun, too. So try our tools and give me kind but critical feedback, but with some kindness.
**Lenny:** 好的。网址是 s-a-a-s-t-r.ai。
**Lenny:** Okay. And it's s-a-a-s-t-r.ai.
**Jason Lemkin:** 是的,我还在纠结 AI 域名和 .com 域名的关系。我们有个 SEO 的问题,所以没法直接迁移过去,但——
**Jason Lemkin:** Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the AI versus the .com. We got a SEO issue, so I can't really move it over, but—
**Lenny:** 看起来很棒。用起来也很好。而且网址更短。
**Lenny:** It looks great. It works. It works. It's shorter, too.
**Jason Lemkin:** 确实更短。
**Jason Lemkin:** It is shorter.
**Lenny:** Jason,非常感谢你来参加节目。
**Lenny:** Jason, thank you so much for being here.
**Jason Lemkin:** 好的,Lenny,你是最棒的。
**Jason Lemkin:** All right, Lenny, you're the best.
**Lenny:** 大家再见。
**Lenny:** Bye, everyone.
**Lenny:** 非常感谢大家的收听。如果你觉得有收获,可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅本节目。也请考虑给我们打个分或留个评价,这真的能帮助其他听众发现这档播客。你可以在 lennyspodcast.com 找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于本节目的信息。我们下期再见。
**Lenny:** Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.