**Andrew Huberman：** 欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这个节目中我们会回顾过往的精华内容，为大家带来最有效、最具可操作性的、以科学为基础的心理健康、身体健康和表现提升工具。我是 Andrew Huberman，Stanford 医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。接下来是我和 Dr. Erich Jarvis 的对话。Erich，非常高兴你能来。
**Andrew Huberman:** Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stamford School of Medicine. And now for my discussion with Dr. Eric Jarvis. Eric, so great to have you here.
**Erich Jarvis：** 谢谢。
**Erich Jarvis:** Thank you.
**Andrew Huberman：** 我非常想向你学习关于语音和语言的知识——研究语音和语言的学科，以及大脑如何组织语音和语言。它们之间有什么相似之处？有什么不同？我们应该怎样理解语音和语言？
**Andrew Huberman:** Yeah, very interested in learning from you about speech and language in terms of the study of speech and language and thinking about how the brain organizes speech and language. Uh what are the similarities? What are the differences? How should we think about speech and language?
**Erich Jarvis：** 它们之间其实没有那么截然分明的区别。现在有些人的看法是这样的：大脑里存在一个独立的语言模块，这个模块包含了所有的算法和计算，影响着语音产生通路如何发出声音，以及听觉通路如何感知和理解语音。我认为没有任何有力证据支持存在一个独立的语言模块。实际上，是语音产出通路在控制我们的喉部和下颌肌肉，这条通路本身就内置了所有复杂的口语语言算法。而听觉通路则包含了理解语音的算法，并不是从某个独立的语言模块分离出来的。
这条语音产出通路是人类、鹦鹉和鸣禽所特有的。而听觉感知通路在动物界则要普遍得多。这就是为什么狗能听懂"坐下""好孩子""去捡球"这些指令。狗能理解几百个人类语音词汇。大猩猩你可以教它们几千个词，但它们一个词都说不出来。
**Erich Jarvis:** There really isn't such a sharp distinction. Now let me tell you how some people think of it now that there's a separate language module in the brain that has all the algorithms and computations that influence the speech pathway on how to produce sound and the auditory pathway on how to perceive and interpret it uh for speech or for you know sound that we call speech. I don't think there is any good evidence for a separate language module. Instead, there is a speech production pathway that's controlling our larynx, controlling our jaw muscles that has built within it all the complex algorithms for spoken language. And there's the auditory pathway that has algorithms for understanding speech, not separate from a language module.
And this speech production pathway is specialized to humans and parrots and songirds. Whereas this auditory perception pathway is more ubiquitous amongst the animal kingdom. And this is why dogs can understand sit ce boy get the ball and so forth. Dogs can understand several hundred human speech words. Great apes you can teach them for several thousand but they can't say a word.
**Andrew Huberman：** 关于那些类似语言但可能不属于经典意义上"语言"的交流方式，我们目前了解多少？
**Andrew Huberman:** What do we understand about modes of communication that are like language but might not be what would classically be called language?
**Erich Jarvis：** 在控制口语的脑区旁边，就是控制手势的脑区。这条手部平行通路也拥有复杂的算法可以利用。有些物种在这些回路上更高级——无论是声音还是手势——有些则没那么高级。人类在口语方面是最高级的，但在手势语言方面与其他某些物种的差距就没那么大了。
就像你和我今天坐在这里对话，那些只听声音看不到我们的听众不会知道，我们其实在说话的同时一直在用手做手势，完全是无意识的。如果我们在打电话，我会一只手拿着电话，另一只手也在比划，即使你根本看不见我。为什么会这样？有些学者认为——我也基于我们的研究结果同意这个观点——控制语音产出的脑通路和控制手势的脑通路之间存在进化上的关联。我前面提到的那些脑区在空间上是直接相邻的。
为什么会这样？我认为控制语音的脑通路是从控制身体运动的脑通路演化而来的。当你看意大利语、法语、英语等不同语言时，每种语言都伴随着一套后天习得的手势，你可以用这些手势来辅助交流。
说到其他动物呢，Koko 是一只和人类一起生活了39年甚至更久的大猩猩，她学会了手势交流，也就是手语。但 Koko 发不出那些声音。她能通过看手语或听别人说话来理解意思，但她无法用声音表达。这背后的原因是：很多物种——虽然不是所有物种——拥有大脑中的运动通路，可以学习手势、做基本的手势语言，即使没有人类那么高级。但它们缺少这条额外的声音脑通路，所以无法像用手做手势那样用声音"做手势"。
**Erich Jarvis:** Right? So next to the brain regions that are controlling spoken language are the brain regions for gesturing with the hands. And that hand parallel pathway has also complex algorithms that we can utilize. And some species are more advanced in these circuits, whether it's sound or gesturing with hands, and some are less advanced. Humans are the most advanced at spoken language, but not necessarily as big a difference at gestural language compared to some other species.
So, as you and I are talking here today, and people who are listening but can't see us, we're actually gesturing with our hands as we talk uh without knowing it. We're doing it unconsciously and if we were talking on a telephone, I would have one hand here and I would be gesturing with the other hand without even you seeing me, right? And so why is that? Some have argued and I would agree with based upon what we've seen is that there is an evolutionary relationship between the brain pathways that control speech production and gesturing. Uh and and the brain regions I mentioned are directly adjacent to each other.
And why is that? I think that the brain pathways that control speech evolved out of the brain pathways that control body movement. All right? And um that uh when you talk about Italian, French, English, and so forth, um each one of those languages come with a learned set of gestures that you can communicate with.
Now, how is that related to other animals? Well, Koko, a gorilla who is raised with humans for 39 years or more, uh, learned how to do gesture communication, learned how to sign language, so to speak, right? But Koko couldn't produce those sounds. Koko could understand them as well by s by seeing somebody sign or hearing somebody produce speech, but Koko couldn't produce it with her voice. And so what's going on there is that a number of species, not all of them, a number of species have motor pathways in the brain where you can do learn gesturing, rudimentary language if you wanted, say, with your lens, even if it's not as advanced as humans, but they don't have this extra brain pathway for the sound. So they can't gesture with their voice in the way that they gesture with their hands.
**Andrew Huberman：** 我很长时间以来一直在思考一个问题：原始的情绪和原始的声音是否是语言的早期基底。当我闻到美味的东西时，我通常会更深地吸气，可能会发出享受的声音。但闻到恶臭时，我会本能地转头、呼气，试图不吸入那些分子。我可以想象，这些就像是语言系统最基本的明暗对比。从原始到精细，从声音到语言的金字塔。这个想法是不是太疯狂了？有没有任何证据支持？
**Andrew Huberman:** One thing that I've wondered about for a very long time is whether or not um primitive emotions and primitive sounds are the early substrate of language. When I smell something delicious, I typically inhale more and I might say or something like that. Whereas if I smell something putrid, I typically turn away. I wse and I will exhale trying to not ingest those molecules or inhale those molecules. I could imagine that these are the basic dark and light contrasts of the language system. This kind of primitive to more sophisticated um pyramid of of sound to language. Is this a crazy idea? Do we have any uh do we have any evidence this is the way it works?
**Erich Jarvis：** 不，这个想法一点都不疯狂。事实上，你正好触及了我早期研究领域的一个关键区分，就是声音学习（vocal learning）研究。大多数脊椎动物都会发声，但它们产生的绝大多数是先天的、与生俱来的声音。比如婴儿的哭声，或者狗的吠叫。只有极少数物种拥有后天习得的声音交流能力——也就是模仿声音的能力。这正是口语之所以特殊的原因。当人们想到语言有什么特别之处时，关键就在于那些后天学会的发声。这种能力是非常稀有的。
你提到的那些呼吸、发出咕噜声之类的东西，大部分是由脑干回路处理的，就在脖子那个高度及以下，像反射一样。还有一些情绪方面的行为由下丘脑等区域处理。但后天习得的行为——学习说话、学习弹钢琴、训练狗做把戏——用的是前脑回路。在很多物种中，前脑有大量回路控制着身体各部位的运动学习，但不控制发声。
但在人类、鹦鹉和其他一些物种中，不知怎么我们获得了让前脑接管脑干的回路，现在利用脑干不仅产生先天的发声行为，还能产生后天学习的发声行为。
**Erich Jarvis:** No, it's not a crazy idea. And in fact, you hit upon one of the key distinctions in the field of research that I started out in, which is vocal learning research. Most vertebrate species vocalize, but most of them are producing innate sounds that they're born with. Uh that is babies crying, for example, or dogs barking. And only a few species have learned vocal communication, the ability to imitate sounds. And that is what makes spoken language special. When people think of what's special about language, it's the learned vocalizations. That is what's rare.
So all the things you talked about, the breathing, the grunting and so forth, a lot of that is handled by the brain stem circuits, you know, right around the level of your neck and below uh like a reflex kind of thing. So or or even some emotional aspects of your behavior in the hypothalamus and so forth. But for a learned behavior, learning how to speak, uh, learning how to play the piano, teaching a dog to learn how to do tricks is using the forebrain circuits. And what has happened is that there's a lot of forebrain circuits that are controlling learning how to move body parts in these species, but not for the vocalizations.
But in humans and in parrots and some other species somehow we acquired circuits where the forebrain has taken over the brain stem and now using that brain stem not only to produce the innate behaviors or vocal behaviors but the learned ones as well.
**Andrew Huberman：** 我们对现代或复杂的语言是在灵长类动物中何时演化出来的有什么了解？我们人类也属于灵长类。
**Andrew Huberman:** Do we have any sense of when modern or sophisticated language evolved amongst the primates which we humans belong to?
**Erich Jarvis：** 在灵长类中，只有我们拥有这种高级的声音学习能力。过去人们假定只有智人才有这种能力。但现在基于基因组数据——不仅是现代活着的人类的，还有智人化石、Neanderthal、Denisovan 个体的基因组数据——我们发现人类祖先曾经与这些其他人族物种杂交过。以前人们假定那些人族物种不会学习模仿声音。
但我不知道今天有哪个声音学习物种能和一个非声音学习物种生育后代。我没见过这种情况。这不意味着历史上不存在。当我们看这些祖先人族的基因数据时——那些参与声音学习交流的基因——它们和现代人类的基因序列是一样的。
所以我认为 Neanderthal 拥有口语。我不敢说他们的语言和现代人类一样高级，我不知道。但我认为语言至少已经存在了50万到100万年。
**Erich Jarvis:** We are the only ones that have this advanced vocal learning ability. Uh now when you it was assumed that it was only homo sapiens. Uh then you can go back in time now based upon genomic data not only of us living humans but of the fossils that have been found for homo sapiens of Neanderthalss of Dennisovven uh individuals and discover that our ancestor our human ancestors supposedly hybridize with these other homminid species. And it was assumed that these other homminid species don't learn how to imitate sounds.
I don't know of any species today that's a vocal learner that can have children with a non-vocal learning species. I I don't see it. It doesn't mean it didn't exist. Uh and when we look at the genetic data from these ancestral homminids that uh you know where we can look at genes that are involved in learn vocal communication they have the same sequence as we humans do for genes that function in speech circuits.
So I think Neanderthalss had spoken language. I'm not going to say it's as advanced as what it is in humans. I don't know. Um but I think it's been there for at least between 500,000 to a million years.
**Andrew Huberman：** 我们能不能再多聊一下人类和其他动物控制语言和语音的脑回路之间的重叠？我成长在神经科学的一个时代，鸟鸣——鸟类学习导师歌曲的能力——曾经是也仍然是神经科学的一个重要子领域。还有关键期的概念，就是在生命早期学习语言比之后更容易的那段时间。不同脑区的命名方式差别很大。打开教科书，对于人类你看到的是 Wernicke 区和 Broca 区，而鸟的研究里是 HVC、robust nucleus of arcopallium、Area X 等等。那么鸣禽和人类幼儿控制语音和语言的脑区到底有多相似或多不同？
**Andrew Huberman:** Maybe we could talk a little bit more about the overlap between brain circuits that control language and speech in humans and other animals. You know, I was weaned in the neuroscience era where bird song and the uh the ability of birds to learn their tutor song was and still is a prominent field um sub field of neuroscience. And this notion of a critical period, a time in which language is learned more easily than it is later in life. And the names of the different brain areas were quite different. Um it one opens the textbooks we hear vernicks and brocas for the humans and you look at the bird stuff. I remember you know HBC a robust arch striatum area X right that's right. Uh how similar or different are the brains brain areas controlling speech and language in say a song bird and a and a young ch human child.
**Erich Jarvis：** 回到1950年代甚至更早，Peter Marler 和其他投身于神经行为学——在自然条件下研究行为的神经生物学——的学者们开始发现：在行为层面上，鸣禽、鹦鹉以及我们现在知道的蜂鸟——在全球40多个鸟类目中仅有这三个目——能像我们一样模仿声音。这就是相似之处。换句话说，这些鸟在行为上与人类的相似程度，超过黑猩猩与人类的相似程度，也超过鸡与它们的近亲之间的相似程度。
然后学者们发现了更多的相似之处，比如关键期。如果一个孩子被隔离——不幸的是确实有过这样的案例——没有在人类社会中长大，经过了青春期的生长阶段，成年后就很难再学会语言。存在一个学习最佳的关键期，即使后来回到正常社会也很难学习。
鸟类也经历同样的关键期。后来还发现，如果它们变聋了——我们人类变聋后，不经过任何治疗，语音就会开始退化。但如果是非人灵长类或者鸡变聋了，它们的发声几乎不会退化。而声音学习鸟类变聋后，发声也会退化。所以存在一整套平行的行为现象。然后科学家们开始研究大脑——我的博士导师 Fernando Nottebohm 开始发现了你提到的 Area X、robust nucleus of arcopallium，这些脑通路在不能模仿声音的物种中找不到。所以这里存在平行性。
接着很多年后，我开始深入研究这些脑回路，发现它们与人类的脑回路有平行的功能，尽管名字不同——比如 Broca 区、laryngeal motor cortex。最近我们还发现，不仅回路结构和连接方式相似，这些脑区中以特殊方式表达的、区别于大脑其他区域的基因，在人类和鸣禽、鹦鹉之间也是相似的。
一直深入到基因层面，我们现在发现连具体的基因突变也是相似的。不总是完全相同，但很相似。这表明在分离了3亿年、来自共同祖先的物种之间，一个所谓的复杂行为发生了惊人的趋同进化（convergent evolution）。不仅如此，我们还发现，导致人类语音障碍的基因突变——比如 FOXP2——如果把同样的突变或类似的缺陷放到这些声音学习鸟类中，也会产生类似的障碍。行为的趋同伴随着行为遗传疾病的趋同。
**Erich Jarvis:** Yeah. So going back to the 1950s or and even a little earlier and Peter Mer and others who got involved in neuroethology, the study of neurobiology of behavior in a natural way, right? Um you know they start to find that behaviorally there are these species of birds like song birds and parrots and now we also know hummingbirds just three of them out of the 40some bird groups out there on the planet orders that they can imitate sounds like we do. And so that was the similarity. In other words, they had this kind of behavior that's more similar to us than chimpanzees have with us or than chickens have with them, right? They're closer relatives.
And then they discovered even more similarities, these critical periods that if you remove a child and you know this unfortunately happens where a child is feral and is not raised with human and goes through their puberty phase of growth, becomes hard for them to learn a language as an adult. So there's this critical period where you learn best and even later on when you're in regular society it's hard to learn.
Well the birds undergo the same thing and then it was discovered that if they become deaf we humans become deaf our speech starts to deteriorate without any kind of therapy. Uh if a non-human primate or um you know or let's say a chicken becomes deaf uh their vocalizations don't deteriorate very little at least. Uh well this happens in the vocal learning birds. So there were all these behavioral parallels that came along with a package and then people looked into the brain Fernando Nataba my former PhD adviser and began to discover the area X you talked about uh the robust nucleus of the archopelium and um and these brain pathways were not found in the species who couldn't imitate. So there was a parallel here.
And then uh jumping many years later you know I started to dig down into these uh brain circuits to discover that these brain circuits have parallel functions with the brain circuits for humans even though they're by a different name like brocas and linja motor cortex. And most recently we discovered not only the actual circuitry and the connectivity are similar but the underlying genes that are expressed in these brain regions in a specialized way different from the rest of the brain are also similar between humans and song birds and parrots.
So all the way down to the genes and now we're finding the specific mutations are also similar. Not always identical but similar uh which indicates remarkable convergence for a so-called complex behavior in species separated by 300 million years from a common ancestor. And not only that, we are discovering that mutations in these genes that cause speech deficits in humans like in fox P2, uh if you put those same mutations or similar type of deficits in these vocal learning birds, you get similar deficits. So convergence of the behavior is associated with similar genetic disorders of the behavior.
**Andrew Huberman：** 蜂鸟是唱歌还是嗡嗡叫？
**Andrew Huberman:** Do hummingbirds sing or do they hum?
**Erich Jarvis：** 蜂鸟用翅膀嗡嗡振动，用鸣管唱歌，而且是协调配合的。
**Erich Jarvis:** Hummingbirds hum with their wings and sing with their searings in a coordinated way.
**Andrew Huberman：** 协调配合的。
**Andrew Huberman:** In a coordinated way.
**Erich Jarvis：** 有些种类的蜂鸟——Doug Altshuler 展示过这一点——会拍打翅膀，让翅膀发出啪啪的声响，与歌声同步。你如果不知道的话根本听不出来，但那个声音听起来就像它歌曲中的某个音节，尽管实际上是翅膀和嗓音同时发出的。
**Erich Jarvis:** There's some species of hummingbirds um that actually will um Doug Ashler showed this that will flap uh their wings and create a slapping sound with their wings that's in unison with their song and and you would not know it, but it sounds like a particular syllable in their songs. Uh even though it's their wings and their voice at the same time.
**Andrew Huberman：** 蜂鸟在给自己的歌曲打拍子。
**Andrew Huberman:** Hummingbirds are clapping to their song.
**Erich Jarvis：** 对，它们用翅膀互相拍击，与歌声同步。就好像我说"嗒嗒嗒嗒嗒嗒"的时候同时敲桌子，只不过它们能让翅膀发出的声音听起来几乎和嗓音一样。
蜂鸟令人惊叹的一点——我们可以说声音学习物种普遍如此——是它们似乎同时演化出了多种复杂性状。这印证了一个观点：口语的演化会伴随着一整套特化能力。
**Erich Jarvis:** Clapping with their they're snapping their wings together uh in unison with a song to to make it like if I'm going da da da da da da, you know, and I banged on the table except they make it almost sound like their voice with their wings.
What's amazing about hummingbirds and I we're going to say vocal learning species in general is that for whatever reason they seem to evolve multiple complex traits. You know this idea that evolving language, spoken language in particular comes along with a set of specializations.
**Andrew Huberman：** 我学神经科学的时候了解到——我记得是 Peter Marler 的工作——幼鸟、鸣禽会学习它们导师的歌曲，而且学得很好。但它们也可以学另一只导师鸟的歌曲，也就是学习一种不同的"语言"、不同的鸟鸣，和自己物种的歌曲不一样。只不过永远学不到自己物种、有遗传关联的歌曲那么好。
**Andrew Huberman:** When I was coming up in neuroscience, I learned that I think it was the work of Peter Marlor that um young birds learn song birds learn their tutor song and learn it quite quite well. But that they could learn the song of another tutor. In other words, they could learn a different, and for the listeners, I'm doing air quotes here, a different language, a different bird song, different than their own species song, but never as well as they could learn their own natural genetically linked song.
**Erich Jarvis：** 是的，"遗传关联"的意思是，这就像我在另一个文化中长大，我会学会那种语言，但不会像学英语学得那么好。大概就是这个意思。
**Erich Jarvis:** Yes, genetically linked meaning that it would be like me being raised in a different culture and um that I would learn that the other language, but not as well as I would have learned English. This this is the idea.
**Andrew Huberman：** 真的是这样吗？
**Andrew Huberman:** Is that true?
**Erich Jarvis：** 确实如此。这也是我成长过程中学到的，我和 Peter Marler 本人也讨论过这个问题，在他去世之前。他有一个说法叫"先天的学习倾向"（innate predisposition to learn）。在语言学界，对应的概念就是普遍语法（universal grammar）。在我们后天学到的文化因素之上，还有某种遗传因素在影响我们的声音交流。
所以在鸟类的歌曲中，遗传控制和后天文化控制之间存在一种平衡。确实，如果你把一只斑胸草雀和一只金丝雀一起养大，它唱出的歌曲会是两者之间的某种混合体。我们管它叫"caninch"。反过来金丝雀也一样，因为它们的发声肌肉结构或者脑回路有些不同。
而且对于斑胸草雀，即使是亲缘关系很近的物种也是如此。如果你把一只幼年斑胸草雀放在一个笼子里，一边放一只同物种的成年雄鸟，另一边放一只 Bengalese finch，它会优先学习同物种邻居的歌曲。但如果你把同物种的邻居移走，它会很好地学习那只 Bengalese finch 的歌。
**Erich Jarvis:** That is true. Yes. And that's and that's what I learned growing up as well and and and talked to Peter Mer himself about before he passed. Um he had this he used to call it the innate predisposition to learn. All right. So um which would be kind of the equivalent in the linguistic community of universal grammar. There is something genetically influencing our vocal communication on top of what we learn culturally.
And so there's this ba balance between the genetic control of speech or a song in these birds and the learned uh cultural control. And so so yes, if you were to take um you know um I mean in this case we we actually tried this at Rockerfeller later on. Take a zebra fininch and raise it with a canary. It would sing a song that was sort of like a hybrid in between. We call it a caninch, right? Uh and vice versa for the canary because there's something different about their vocal musculature or the gen or the circuitry in the brain.
And with a zebra finch, even with a closely related species, if you would take a zebra finch uh young animal and in one cage next to it place its own species, adult male, right? And in the other cage place a Bengal finch next to it, it would preferably learn the song from its own species neighbor. But if you remove its neighbor, it would learn that bangal finch very well.
**Andrew Huberman：** 太精彩了。
**Andrew Huberman:** Fantastic.
**Erich Jarvis：** 所以这也和对同物种的社会联结有关。
**Erich Jarvis:** So there's it it has something to do with also the social bonding with your own species.
**Andrew Huberman：** 这引出了一个问题。我听到过一个说法，但没有找到经过同行评审的论文来支持它：当多种文化和语言在一个地理区域汇聚时，来自不同母语家庭的孩子们会发展出自己的语言。我记得这好像发生在某个岛屿文化中，可能是 Hawaii，叫做 pidgin——不是鸽子那个词——它是父母们在家说的各种语言和孩子们自己说的语言的一种混合体。据说 pidgin 语言包含了所有语言共有的某些基本要素。这是真的吗？
**Andrew Huberman:** That raises a question that I based on something I also heard but I don't have any uh scientific peer-reviewed publication to point to which is this this idea of pigeon not the bird but this idea of when multiple cultures and languages converge in a given geographic area that the children of all the different native languages will come up with their own language. I think this was in island culture maybe in Hawaii called pigeon which is sort of a hybrid of the various languages that their parents speak at home and that they themselves speak and that somehow pigeon again not the bird but a language called pigeon for reasons I don't know harbors certain basic elements of all language. Is that true is that not true?
**Erich Jarvis：** 这里发生的事情是：文化进化在某种程度上追踪着基因进化。如果你把两个分离种群的人放在一起——他们的种群在进化上至少分离了几百代，比如一个说中文，一个说英语——然后有一个孩子同时从两者那里学习。是的，那个孩子能够学会并融合两种语言的音素和词汇，而成年人做不到这一点。为什么？因为那个孩子在关键期同时接触两种语言，这是成年人无法体验的。所以就产生了一种混合体，而最大公约数就是两种语言共享的部分。两种语言各自保留的音素中，共同的那些我认为会被用得最多。
**Erich Jarvis:** What is going on here is cultural evolution remarkably tracks genetic evolution. So if you bring people from two separate populations together that have been in their separate populations evolutionarily at least for hundreds of generations. So someone speaking Chinese, someone speaking English. Uh and that child uh then's learning from both of them. Yes. That child's going to be able to pick up and merge uh uh uh phonms and words together in a way that an adult wouldn't because why? They're experiencing both languages at the same time during their critical period uh years in a way that um adults would not be able to experience. And so you get a hybrid and the lowest common denominator is going to be what they share. And so the phonms that they've retained in each of their uh languages is what's going to be I imagine used the most.
**Andrew Huberman：** 所以我们在鸣禽和人类中有很多相似的脑回路——虽然不是完全相同的布线，但基本的布线轮廓和基因在两个截然不同的物种的神经回路中都有表达——负责我们所说的语音和语言现象。那这些基因到底在做什么？
**Andrew Huberman:** So we've got brain circuits in songirds and in humans that in many ways are similar perhaps not in their exact wiring but in their basic contour of wiring and genes that are expressed in both sets of neural circuits in very distinct species that are responsible for these phenomenon we're calling speech and language. I mean what are what are these genes doing?
**Erich Jarvis：** 人类的语音通路和鸟类的歌曲通路有一个不同之处：有些连接从根本上不同于周围的回路。比如从大脑皮层控制发声的区域直接到控制喉部的运动神经元——人类是喉部，鸟类是鸣管——存在一条直接的皮层连接。我们实际上做了一个预测：既然这些连接有差异，我们应该能找到控制神经连接的基因，这些基因以特殊的方式发挥功能。我们找到的结果正好验证了这个预测。
我们发现了控制轴突引导（axon guidance）和连接形成的基因。有趣的是，结果和我们预期的方向相反。一些控制神经连接的基因在语音回路中被关闭了。起初我们不理解，后来才意识到这些基因的功能是排斥连接的形成——它们是排斥性分子。当你把它们关闭时，就允许某些正常情况下不会形成的连接得以形成。所以关闭基因反而获得了语音的功能增益（gain of function）。
另一类让我们惊讶的基因涉及钙缓冲（calcium buffering）和神经保护功能，比如 parvalbumin 或热休克蛋白。大脑温度升高时这些蛋白就会被激活。我们很长时间想不通为什么会这样，直到有一天我突然想到——当我听说喉部肌肉是全身最快的收缩肌肉时就明白了。要像我们这样振动和调制声音，控制那些肌肉的速度必须比普通的走路或跑步快三到五倍。
所以当你把电极插入这些鸟类控制习得性发声的脑区时——我想人类也是一样——那些神经元以更高的频率放电来控制这些肌肉。这会怎样？那些神经元会产生大量毒性，除非你上调能清除额外负荷的分子。
第三类在语音回路中特化的基因涉及神经可塑性（neuroplasticity），就是让脑回路更灵活、更便于学习。为什么呢？我认为学习产出语音是一种比学走路或学做花式动作更复杂的学习能力。
**Erich Jarvis:** Uh, one of the things that differ in the speech pathways of us and these song pathways of birds is some of the connections are fundamentally different than the surrounding circuits. Like a um a direct cortical connection uh from the areas that control vocalizations in the cortex to the motor neurons that control the larynx in uh humans or the serrings in birds. And so we actually made a prediction uh that since some of these connections differ, we're going to find genes that that control neuro connectivity uh and that specialize in that function that differ. And that's exactly what we found.
Uh um genes that control what we call axon guidance and form in connections. And what was interesting, it was sort of in the opposite direction that we expected. That is some of these genes, actually a number of them that control neuro connectivity were turned off in the speech circuit. All right? Uh and it didn't make sense to us at first until we started to realize the function of these genes are to repel connections from forming. So repulsive molecules and so when you turn them off, they allow certain connections to form that normally would have not formed. So it's a so by turning it off, you got a gain of function for speech, right?
Um uh other genes that surprised us were genes involved in calcium buffering neurop protection like a parvamine or heat shock proteins. So when your brain gets hot these proteins turn on and we couldn't figure out for a long time why is that the case and then the idea popped to me one day and said ah when I heard the larynx is the fastest firing muscles in the body. All right. In order to vibrate sound and and modulate sound in the way we do, you have to control, you have to move those muscles, you know, three to four to five times faster than just regular walking or running.
And so, um, when you stick electrodes in in the brain areas that control learn vocalizations in these birds and I think in humans as well, uh, those neurons are firing at a higher rate to control these muscles. And so what is that going to do? You're going to have lots of toxicity in those neurons unless you upregulate molecules that take out uh the extra load that is needed to control the larynx.
And then finally a third set of genes that are specialized in these speed circuit are involved in neuroplasticity. Uh neuroplasticity meaning allowing the brain circuits to be more flexible uh so you can learn better. And why is that? I think learning how to produce speech is a more complex learning ability than say learning how to walk or or learning how to do tricks and jumps and so forth that dogs do.
**Andrew Huberman：** 关于语音的可塑性和学习多种语言的能力——甚至只是学一种语言——在所谓的关键期里大脑发生了什么？第二个问题是：如果一个人在童年时期已经会说不止一种语言，后来学新语言会不会更容易？
**Andrew Huberman:** In terms of plasticity of speech and the ability to learn multiple languages but even just one language. What's going on in the so-called critical period? And then the second question is if one can already speak more than one language as a consequence of childhood learning is it easier to acquire new languages later on.
**Erich Jarvis：** 实际上整个大脑都在经历关键期发育，不仅仅是语音通路。所以小时候学钢琴更容易，第一次学骑自行车也更容易。大脑能容纳的信息量是有限的。如果你在快速学习、获取新知识，你也得像电脑一样把一些记忆或信息放进回收站。你的"内存"是有限的。而且为了生存，你也不想不断地忘记东西。
所以我认为大脑的设计就是经历关键期，把童年学到的内容固化到回路中，然后终身使用。你问的第二个问题——如果小时候学了更多语言，成年后学新语言是不是更容易——这在文献中确实是一个常见的发现。虽然也有人持反对意见，但对于支持这个观点的人来说，道理是这样的：你出生时能发出一整套先天的音素，然后逐渐缩窄范围，因为不是所有语言都用到所有音素。
你把用到的音素组合成词汇，成年后就保持着这些音素。这时来了另一种语言，使用你不习惯的音素组合，就像要从头开始。但如果你小时候已经在多种语言中保留了那些音素，学第三、第四种语言就容易多了。所以并不是说大脑保持了更强的可塑性，而是大脑保持了更强的发出不同声音的能力，这使你能更快地学会新语言。
**Erich Jarvis:** Actually the entire brain uh is undergoing a critical period development not just the speech pathways and uh so it's easier to learn how to play a piano. It's easier to learn how to ride a bike for the first time and so forth as a young child than it is later in life. The brain can only hold so much information. And if you are undergoing rapid learning to learn to acquire new knowledge, you also have to put memory or information in the trash like in a computer. You you only have so many gigabases of memory. Plus also for survival, you don't want to keep forgetting things.
And so so the brain is designed I believe to undergo this critical period and solidify the circuits with what you learned as a child and you use that for the rest of your life. And now the question you asked about if you learn more languages as a child, can you is it easier to learn as an adult? And that's a common uh finding out there in the literature. There are some that argue against it, but for those that support it, the idea there is um you you are born with a set of innate sounds you can produce of phonms and you narrow that down because not all languages use all of them.
And so you narrow down the ones you use to string the phonms together in words that you learn and you maintain those phonms as an adult. And here comes along another language that's using those phonms or in in different combinations you're not used to. Uh and therefore it's like starting from first principles but if you already have them in multiple languages that you're using then it makes it easier to use them in another third or fourth language. So it's not like your brain has under has maintained greater plasticity is your your brain has maintained greater ability to produce different sounds that then allows you to learn another language faster.
**Andrew Huberman：** 那些看起来有深厚的情感和意义、但偏离了结构化语言的语音和语言模式呢？我想到了音乐人，比如有些 Bob Dylan 的歌，我能理解每个单词，我觉得有某种情感在里面——至少我体验到了某种情感，也能猜到他可能在经历什么。但如果我把歌词按文字线性地读出来，没有音乐，没有他或类似他的人来演唱，那些歌词就完全没有意义了。换句话说，有些词看起来有意义，但那种意义不是来自语言本身，而是以某种方式触及了情感。
**Andrew Huberman:** What about modes of speech and language that seem to have a depth of emotionality and meaning but for which it departs from structured language? I think of musicians like there are some Bob Dylan songs that to me uh I understand the individual words. I like to think there's an emotion associated with it. At least I experienced some sort of emotion and I have a guess about what he was experiencing. But if I were to just read it linearly without the music and without him singing it or somebody singing it like him, it wouldn't hold any meaning. So in other words, words that seem to have meaning but not associated with language but somehow tap into an emotionality.
**Erich Jarvis：** 完全正确。我们把这种区别叫做语义交流（semantic communication）——带有明确含义的交流，和情感交流（affective communication）——更多带有情感感受内容的交流。根据脑成像研究和我们在鸟类中的观察——当鸟类在声音中传递语义信息时（这种情况不太常见但确实存在），和进行情感交流时（比如唱求偶歌或保卫领地），用的是同一套脑回路，同样的类语音或歌曲回路，只是使用方式不同。
还有几个要点值得听众了解。当我说情感交流和语义交流使用相似的脑回路时，大脑的左右半球也很重要。在鸟类和人类中，学习性声音交流存在左右侧优势。人类的左半球在语音方面更占优势，但右半球在唱歌或处理音乐声方面更为均衡。两侧半球都参与两种功能。
所以当人们说右脑是艺术脑、左脑是思考脑时，指的就是这个。第二个值得了解的点是：所有声音学习物种都会将习得的声音用于情感性交流，但只有少数——比如人类、某些鹦鹉和海豚——将其用于语义性交流，也就是我们所说的语言。
这让很多人提出假说：口语的进化最初是为了唱歌——一种更像情感性的、求偶性的交流，就像 Jennifer Lopez、Ricky Martin 那样的歌曲——后来才被用于像我们现在这样的抽象交流。
**Erich Jarvis:** Absolutely. So, so we call this difference um semantic communication, communication with meaning and effective communication, communication that has more of an emotional feeling content to it. I believe you know based upon imaging work and work we see in birds when when birds are communicating semantic information in their sounds which is not too often but it happens versus uh effective communication sing because I'm trying to attract the mate my courtship song or defend my territory it's the same brain circuits it's the same speech like or song circuits are being used in different ways.
There there's several other points here I think it's important for for the those listening out there to here is that when I say also this effective and um semantic communication um being used by similar brain circuits it also matters the side of the brain uh in birds and in humans um there's there's left right dominance uh for learn communication learned sound communication uh so the left in us humans is more dominant for speech but the right has a more balance for singing or processing musical sounds as opposed to processing speech. Both get used for both reasons.
And so when people say your right brain is your artistic brain and your left brain is your thinking brain, this is what they're referring to. Uh and uh so that's another distinction. The second uh thing that's useful to know is that all vocal learning species use their learn sounds for this emotional effective kind of communication, but only a few of them like humans and some parrots and dolphins use it for the semantic kind of communication we calling speech.
And and that has led a number of people to hypothesize that the evolution of spoken language of speech evolved first for singing uh for this more like emotional kind of made attraction like the Jennifer Lopez the Ricky Martin kind of songs and so forth. Uh and then later on it became used for abstract communication like we're doing now.
**Andrew Huberman：** 我想聊一下面部表情，其中很多是无意识的。我们都知道，当一个人说的话和他面部表情的某个特征不一致时，那种不匹配会引起我们的注意。
**Andrew Huberman:** I'd love to chat a moment about facial expression many of which are subconscious. We are all familiar with the fact that when what somebody says doesn't match some specific feature of their facial expression that it can um call you know that mismatch can cue our attention.
**Erich Jarvis：** 是的。
**Erich Jarvis:** Yeah.
**Andrew Huberman：** 那么控制面部表情的运动回路，和控制语言、语音、甚至身体和手部运动的脑回路，它们之间是怎样对应的？
**Andrew Huberman:** So how does motor circuitry that controls facial expression map on to the mo the brain circuits that control language, speech and even bodily and hand movement?
**Erich Jarvis：** 这是个很好的问题，因为我们都认识一些同行，比如 Rockefeller 大学的 Winrich Freiwald，他研究面部表情及其背后的神经生物学。非人灵长类的面部表情和我们人类一样丰富多样。关于控制面部肌肉的脑区，我们知道这些非人灵长类以及某些不会模仿发声的物种，从皮层区域到控制面部表情的运动神经元之间有很强的连接。
虽然非人灵长类的面部表情比人类更多样化一些，但在我们的祖先中已经存在丰富多样的面部表情交流——无论是有意的还是无意识的。在此基础上，我们人类又加上了声音，和面部表情配合使用。这就像电子邮件一样——你读到一封邮件，别人写了什么，你可能把它理解成愤怒的，也可能理解成温和的，会产生歧义。面部表情消除了这种歧义。
**Erich Jarvis:** Yeah. You ask a great question because we both know some colleagues like Winrich Frywald at Rockefeller University who study facial expression and the neurobiology behind it. Non-human primates have a lot of diversity in their facial expression like we humans do. And what we know about the neurobiology of brain regions controlling those muscles of the face is that these non-human primates and some other species that don't learn how to imitate vocalizations, they have strong connections from the cortical regions to the motor neurons that control facial expressions.
And even though it's more diverse in these non-human primates, there was already a pre-existing diversity of communication, whether it's intentional or unconscious, through facial expression in our ancestors. And on top of that, we humans now add the voice uh along with those facial expressions. So it's like an email, too. You're you're emailing and someone says something by email. Someone can interpret that angrily or or gently uh and it it be becomes ambiguous. The facial expressions get rid of that ambiguity.
**Andrew Huberman：** 你提到这个我太高兴了，因为我下一个问题就是关于书面语言的。从一个想法到语言再到书写文字，这个过程是怎样的？我们对其中的神经回路了解多少？
**Andrew Huberman:** I'm so glad you brought that out because my next question was and is about written language. What is the process of going from a thought to language to written word and what's going on there? What do we know about the neural circuitry?
**Erich Jarvis：** 我来从阅读的角度来解释你问的这个问题。你在纸上读到一些内容，信号从纸张通过你的眼睛，最终到达大脑后部的视觉皮层区域。然后视觉信号传到前面运动皮层的语音通路——也就是 Broca 区。你在大脑中默默地"说"出你读到的内容，但不动嘴唇肌肉。
实际上如果你在喉部肌肉上放上 EMG 电极——在鸟类身上也可以这样做——你会发现在阅读或默读时那里有活动，尽管没有发出声音。所以你的语音通路在"说"你正在读的内容。然后这个信号被送到你的听觉通路，这样你就能在脑海中"听到"自己在说什么。
**Erich Jarvis:** What I think is going on is to explain what you're asking is about that I'm going to take it from the perspective of reading something. You read something on a paper. The signal from the paper goes through your eyes. It goes to the back of your brain to your visual cortical regions eventually. That visual signal then goes to your speech pathway in the motor cortex in front here in Brocas area. And you silently speak what you read in your brain without moving your muscles.
And sometimes actually if you put electrodes EMG electrodes on your lendial muscles even on birds you can do this you'll see activity there while reading or or or trying to speak silently even though no sound's coming out. And so your speech pathway is now speaking what you're reading. Now to finish it off that signal is sent to your auditory pathway so you can hear what you're speaking in your own head.
**Andrew Huberman：** 太不可思议了。
**Andrew Huberman:** That's incredible.
**Erich Jarvis：** 所以这就是为什么它很复杂。哦，然后你还得写字。好，这是第四条通路。你语音通路旁边的手部运动区域需要把听觉信号或者相邻的语音运动信号转换成纸上的视觉信号。所以你至少要使用四条脑回路——包括语音产出和语音感知通路——才能写字。
**Erich Jarvis:** And this is why it's complicated. Oh, and then you got to write, right? Okay, here comes the fourth one. Now, the hand areas next to your speech pathway is got to take that auditory signal or even the adjacent motor signals for speaking and translate it into a visual signal on paper. So, so you're using at least four brain circuits um which includes the speech production and the speech perception pathways to write.
**Andrew Huberman：** 口吃（stuttering）是一个特别有趣的案例。目前对口吃的神经生物学理解是什么？在治疗口吃方面有什么进展？
**Andrew Huberman:** Stutter is a um particularly interesting case. What is the current neurobiological understanding of stutter and are what's being developed in terms of treatments for stutter?
**Erich Jarvis：** 我们其实是在鸣禽中意外发现口吃现象的，为此发表了好几篇论文来探究其神经生物学基础。第一项研究中，我们发现基底神经节（basal ganglia）中的纹状体部分——参与协调运动和运动学习——当这条类语音通路中的这个脑区受损时，鸟类开始出现口吃。随着脑区的恢复，它们开始口吃，但与人类不同的是，三四个月后它们真的恢复了。
为什么呢？因为鸟类大脑会产生新的神经元——神经再生（neurogenesis），而人类或哺乳动物的大脑不会这样做。新生的神经元进入了回路，但活动模式还不太对，这就导致了鸟类的口吃。修复之后，虽然恢复的歌曲不完全和以前一样，但恢复得相当好。现在人们知道这种情况在人类中叫做神经源性口吃——年幼时基底神经节受损或出现某种紊乱也会导致人类口吃。即使是先天性口吃，被干扰的往往也是基底神经节——而且我们认为是基底神经节中语音相关的部分。
**Erich Jarvis:** Yeah. So we actually uh accidentally came across stuttering in songirds and we've published several papers on this to try to figure out the neurobiological basis. The first study we had was a brain area called the basil ganglia or the what's the the strium part of the basil ganglia involved in coordinating movements learning how to make movements when it was damaged in these in this in the speech-like pathway in these birds. What we found is that they started to stutter as the brain region recovered and unlike humans they actually recovered after three or four months.
And why is that the case? Because bird brains under goes new neurogenesis in a way that human or mammal brains don't. Uh and it was the new neurons that were coming in into the circuit uh but not quite you know with the right proper activity uh was resulting in this stuttering in these birds. Uh and after it was repaired not exactly the old song came back as a after the repair but still it recovered a lot better and it's now known they call this neurogen neurogenics stuttering in humans uh with damage to the braz ganglia or some type of disruption to the basil ganglia at a young age also causes stuttering in humans and even those who are born with stuttering uh um it it's often the basil ganglia uh that's disrupted than some other brain circuit and we think the speech part of the basil ganglia.
**Andrew Huberman：** 从小就口吃、到成年还在口吃的人，能修复这个问题吗？
**Andrew Huberman:** Can adults who maintain a stutter from childhood uh repair that stutter?
**Erich Jarvis：** 有一些通过行为疗法来克服口吃的方法。我认为所有这些工具都和感觉运动整合有关——以一种有意识的、受控的方式来协调你听到的和你输出的，有助于减轻口吃。
**Erich Jarvis:** There are ways to overcome the stuttering through um through uh you know behavioral therapy. Uh and I think all of the uh tools out there have something to do with sensory motor integration. Uh controlling what you hear with what you output in a a thoughtful controlled way helps reduce the stuttering.
**Andrew Huberman：** 发短信是语言进化中一个非常有趣的现象。我有时候会想，我们是否正在变得不那么擅长说话，因为我们不再需要用完整的句子来书写和思考。
**Andrew Huberman:** Texting is a very very interesting evolution of language. I wonder sometimes whether or not we are getting less proficient at speech because we are not required to write and think in complete sentences.
**Erich Jarvis：** 嗯。
**Erich Jarvis:** Mhm.
**Andrew Huberman：** 你觉得语言正在发生什么变化？我们是越来越擅长说话，还是越来越不擅长？发短信、发推文、缩写、加标签，这些对我们大脑的运作方式有什么影响？
**Andrew Huberman:** What do you think is happening to language? Are we getting better at speaking, worse at speaking? And what do you think the role of things like texting and tweeting and shorthand communication, hashtagging, what's that doing to the way that our brains work?
**Erich Jarvis：** 发短信实际上让人们之间的交流更快速了。大脑更像是"用进废退"。你越多地使用某个脑区或回路，它就越像肌肉一样——越锻炼就越健康、越强大，占的空间越多，同时你也就会失去一些其他东西。
所以我认为发短信并没有降低人们的语音能力或语言的智力水平。它是在把这种能力转换到另一种使用方式上。这种方式在常规写作的丰富性方面可能不如传统写作，因为短文字能传达的细微差别有限。但不管怎样，人们每天花好几个小时在手机上发短信，所以你控制拇指的脑回路肯定会变得相当强大。
**Erich Jarvis:** Uh texting actually has allowed for more rapid communication amongst people. It's more like a use it or lose it kind of a um thing with the brain. The more you use a particular brain region or circuit, the more enhanced it's like a muscle. Uh the more you exercise it, the more healthier it is, the bigger it becomes and the more space it takes and the more you lose something else.
So I think texting is not decreasing the speech prowess or the intellectual prowess of speech. It's converting it and using it a lot in a different way in a way that may not be as rich in in regular writing because uh you you can only communicate so much nuance in short term writing. But um whatever that whatever is being done, you got people texting hours and hours and hours on the phone. So whatever your thumb circuit is going to get pretty big actually.
**Andrew Huberman：** 对于想要提高说话和理解语言能力的听众，你有什么建议吗？小孩子应该学着读难的书还是简单的书？你有什么建议？成年人应该怎么做？每个人都想知道怎样让大脑运转得更好，但人们也想说得好、理解得好。
**Andrew Huberman:** For those listening who are interested in getting better at speaking and understanding languages. Are there any tools that you recommend? Should kids learn how to read hard books and simple books? Uh what do you recommend? Should adults learn how to do that? Everyone wants to know how to keep their brain working better, so to speak, but also I think people want to be able to speak well and people want to be able to understand well.
**Erich Jarvis：** 我从个人经历中发现了一些东西。当我从舞蹈生涯转向科学事业时，我以为有一天我会停止跳舞。但我一直没有停，因为我觉得跳舞让我很满足。有段时间，比如疫情期间，我减少了跳舞的频率。那时候你就会意识到身体某些部位的肌肉力量在下降，或者可能开始发胖——不过我不太容易胖，我觉得这和我跳舞有关，如果这对你的听众有参考价值的话。
但我发现，在科学界我们习惯把运动、行动和认知分开来看。认知属于感知，运动属于产出。但如果语音通路就在运动通路旁边，我的发现是：跳舞帮助我思考，帮助我保持大脑的活力。这不仅仅是在活动肌肉——我在使用大脑中的回路来控制整个身体，这需要大量的脑组织。
所以我的观点是：如果你想在老年时保持认知完整，你最好坚持运动——无论是跳舞、走路还是跑步——同时也要练习演讲、正式表达，或者唱歌。唱歌控制的是面部肌肉的脑回路，这也会让你的认知回路保持良好状态。我从自己的亲身经历中深信这一点。
**Erich Jarvis:** Yeah. What I've discovered personally, right, is that so when I switched from uh pursuing a career in science from a career in dance, I thought one day I would stop dancing. Um but I haven't because it I find it fulfilling for me. And there have been periods of time like during the pandemic where I slowed down on dancing and so forth. Um and and when you do that you realize okay there there parts of your body where your muscle tone decreases a little bit and somewhat and or you could start to gain weight or I somehow don't gain weight that easily and I think it's related to my dance if that's that that's meaningful to your audience.
But what I found is in science we like to think of a separation between movement and action and cognition. And there is a separation for you between perception and production. Cognition being perception, production being movement, right? But if the speech pathways is next to the movement pathways, what I discover is by dancing, it is helping me think. It is helping keeping my brain fresh. It's not just moving my muscles. I'm moving or using the the circuitry in my brain to do control a whole big body. You need a lot of brain tissue to do that.
And so I argue if you want to stay cognitively intact into your old age, you better be moving and you better be doing it consistently, whether it's dancing, walking, running, and also practicing speech, oratory speech and so forth, or singing is controlling the brain circuits that are moving your facial musculature. And it's going to keep your cognitive circuits also in tune. And I'm I'm convinced of that from my own personal experience.
**Andrew Huberman：** 这次对话太精彩了，对我来说是一个难得的学习机会。我知道我代表了很多很多听众在说这些话。我真的要非常感谢你今天加入我们。你非常忙碌。从你对自己研究的描述和你的知识储备来看，你在做非常多的事情。所以感谢你抽出时间来和我们所有人分享。
**Andrew Huberman:** This has been an incredible conversation and opportunity for me to learn. I know I speak for a tremendous number of people. And I I just really want to say thank you for joining us today. You are incredibly busy. It's clear from your description of your science and your knowledge base that you are involved in a huge number of things. Um very busy. So, thank you for taking the time to speak to all of us.
**Erich Jarvis：** 感谢你邀请我来这里，把科学界正在发生的事情传播给大众。
**Erich Jarvis:** Thank you for inviting me here to get the word out to the community uh of what's going on in the science world.
**Andrew Huberman：** 我们非常荣幸，也非常感谢你，Erich。谢谢。
**Andrew Huberman:** Well, we're honored and very grateful to you, Eric. Thank you.
**Erich Jarvis：** 不客气。
**Erich Jarvis:** You're welcome.
